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National

NY: “All Sex Offender Registries Should Be Abolished”: Reason/Soho Forum Debate

[narsol.org]

That’s the highly controversial resolution that will be argued at the next Soho Forum/Reason debate, on Monday, February 12 at New York’s Subculture Theater from 6:30 – 8:30 p.m.

Emily Horowitz will argue the affirmative position. She is professor and chair of the sociology and criminal justice department at St. Francis College in Brooklyn, New York, where she founded a program that helps the formerly incarcerated complete college.

Marci A. Hamilton will take the negative. She is Fox Professor of Practice and Fox Family Pavilion Resident Senior Fellow in the Program for Research on Religion in the Fox Leadership Program at the University of Pennsylvania.

Read more

Related:

Reason And The Soho Forum Want To Know, Do We Abolish The Registry?

 

 

 

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  1. It doesn’t work

    Thanks for publicizing this. More people will hear arguments for abolishing the “sex offender registry” Hopefully some NY judges will be in attendance.

  2. Trevon

    If the super expensive ny state sex registry works even a little, then explain this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2016/12/02/cops-arrest-three-high-risk-sex-offenders-in-subway-incidents/amp/

    • Sam

      For anyone who has ridden the 4 and 5 train during rush hour rubbing on someone’s butt is gonna happen a few thousand times without even trying. But who knows maybe these guys whipped it out and we’re going to town.

      But from the way the story is written it sounds like the police were stalking them looking for any little thing since they can’t do stop and frisk anymore.

      The first guy wasn’t even being a danger though. Other than the knife. But maybe he is homeless and needs to protect himself at night. There was an issue before where drunk people would attack and beat the homeless just for fun.

    • Dustin

      Trevon,

      Guessing this is your point, but bears stating:

      One was recognized from a poster. Nothing about how the other two were identified, so odds are their RSO status wasn’t known until after they were arrested. Bottom line, the registry was useless in preventing these incidents.

  3. A "Risk" Based "Compromise"

    Of course the politicians, bureaucrats, and self-interested businessmen will “compromise” and agree to a “risk” based registry.

    • Gralphr

      I agree, but they’re highly unrealistic in their “threat” assessment. Someone right out of prison may be a threat since they were just let back out into society, but someone that’s been out 10 years with no problems with the police or registration? A person who probably has started a family of their own and is law abiding? It’s completely nonsense to say the person is a threat.

    • Sam

      I had my “risk assessment” when I had moved to New York. Had 40 character letters , brought in a character witness who was a government employee I had known my whole life.

      At first they kept postponing my hearing. Total I had to go to that court house 7 times before I could even get a chance. The last time was because they had to bring in the head prosecutor for the state as the original one had never had anyone reject the assessment of level 2.

      They called me a drug addict alcoholic criminal who had no intention to change even though I hadn’t had a drink in those 7 years since my original crime, hadnt used drug or even committed any offense. I didn’t even have a parking ticket.

      The prosecutor accused my character witness of having sexual relations with me and attempted to call her a whore. Then confused her with random questions that made no sense to make her sound disoriented.

      It’s not a risk assessment based off of your actual risk. A lot of the points you get are from being under the age of 21 at the time of the crime.

      So yeah living a crime free life but determined to be a level 2 based on the events of 7 years before not taking into account that I had completely turned my life around.

      Now not even living in the country anymore they still claim to have jurisdiction over me and require me to update them with any changes in address. Email, phone, etc that I would have to follow living in state. And send them a photo every three years. How is this legal? Technically it’s not in the decision of Roe. But they don’t wanna hear that. Bullshit. Sorry for the rant. But hopefully something comes out of all this as no one has touched New York since Doe v O’Donnell got knocked down

      • Gralphr

        I myself would like to move out of the country if this nonsense doesn’t change within the next 6 years once the first three of my kids are out of the house. My wife and I don’t mind taking the other two since they’re so young. I have a degree and work in Information Technology, but am clueless to what country We could even go to am I and my wife be successful. By that time I will have been out of prison for almost 20 years, crime and drama free and raised three kids and have two left, yet I’m still a threat to society? If that’s the case., this isn’t a society I want to be a part of.

        • David Kennerly, Spectral Evidence Technician

          There’s nothing I would like better either. The problem is that, as ex-felons, we are not very attractive to most other countries who, invariably, have exquisite requirements for both acquiring permanent residency and demonstrating “good character,” usually in the form of an FBI report (which we pay for) and which is sent directly by the FBI to that country’s immigration officials. This is one of the major bummers of being an ex-con if you have aspirations for leaving the country.

        • Sam

          Honestly I got lucky. My wife happens to be from a country that will let you in as long as you have already served your sentence. With that the visa form doesn’t have and question about character or anything like that. When I went for my interview they only asked if I had broken any laws here.

          The only time they will ask for the background check according to the forms is when I apply for citizenship but that could be 20 years before I’m eligible. But even that is a local background check.

        • David Kennerly, Bull-Splatter Analyst

          You are very lucky, indeed Sam. I keep forgetting about the marrying a national angle, probably because that’s not really an option for me 🙂 It does seem to exist in some countries still.

        • Sam

          The IML thing kinda screwed Thailand for us in the fact that their policy also used to be that as long as you hadn’t committed a crime in Thailand you were welcome to get a long term visa.

          My original plan was to go to Thailand to live at a muy thai camp. A few of them would sponsor the visa and lodging if you promised to work there while training.

          But now since it seems they want to please the ปีศาจขาว so that kinda kills things for those of us who had a promising sports career 😂😂last time I was there 3 of the fights were white guys covered in Aryan Brotherhood tattoos. Somehow theyre less dangerous than an RC going to the beach to relax though

        • David Kennerly, Bull-Splatter Analyst

          Sam, I assume that “ปีศาจขาว” is “falang.” Congratulations if you are able to read “curley-que.” That is a really tough language to learn. I loved Thailand. The people were wonderful (mostly) and it was a great place to relax and eat great food and lay on the beach.

        • Sam

          @david directly translates to “white demon” 😂😂 “pisac si khaw” I don’t know much Thai at all. I’m still working on Cantonese, Thai is like the 6th language on my list to learn.

          When I was there a couple months ago most of the people spoke English anyway. I was happy I stayed away from all the tourist areas.

          Surprisingly next to the airport in Phuket is a really quiet hidden beach to avoid tourists and relax in the sun.

          Taxi cost are ridiculous there though. Cost just as much as the US. Was like 800 baht per person from the airport to the town. Which is super overrated and just full of “ladies of the night”.

          Luckily my hotel was a 5 min walk from the airport 😂

        • AJ

          @Gralphr:
          I’m still a threat to society? If that’s the case., this isn’t a society I want to be a part of.
          —–
          Your statement reminded me of a quote from the late-Senator Harold Hughes (IA) who said: “If a society imprisons those who are sick as a means of getting them well, and dares to call itself an enlightened society, then we need to examine the credibility of our enlightenment.”

          It’s not an exact match to what you’re saying, but it’s certainly in the same family!

      • Registry keeps me separate from my partner

        I feel your pain. Despite having only one non-violent, no-contact offense on my record, despitr being listed in the low-risk tier in VA, despite the prosecution’s psychologist stating I’m at low-risk for reoffense, despite my court-appointed therapist saying I’ll be successful in NY, despite the fact I got accepted to grad school with the uni knowing of my conviction, the prosecutor pushed for tier 2.

        When I appealed, the poor ADA they dispatch showed up late, gave a really lackluster performance in court and was corrected by the judge for doing some procedural stuff incorrectly.

        After the court ruled in my favor, the ADA came over and apologized to my lawyer! Said “Sorry, we just needed to get the DA’s opinion on record”.

        It’s not criminal justice, it’s not facts based risk-assessment. The ADA essentially admitted to us that their efforts to put my face on the list of shame was nothing more than political posturing. Fine, a bit of hours on the clock for the DA’s office, a bit of money wasted by taxpayers.

        But for me it meant MONTHS of stress and anxiety, $1000’s in legal fees, and an uncertain future. It’s cruelty.

    • someone who cares

      Nobody can foresee what a person will or will not do, unless they are psychic, and in that case, they should be in an all together different area of work. Look at all these “Me Too” people coming forward, accusing those who nobody would have thought were capable of wrongdoing. We can’t judge people based on what they did and assume they will do it again. Just like we can’t assume that people who never did anything wrong won’t do it in the future. They will just have to take their chances. If someone has turned their life around, made a mistake in the past but moved forward, that person no longer is a threat, and if that person were to re-offend, the bridge would have to be crossed at that time.

    • Dave

      It is concerning that Static 99R is becoming law here in California. Nothing more than a limited tool that’s only useful for (IF any) a few years out of release. If the compromise really becomes risk over offense, then they (the government and profiting companies) are just buying time. Advocating for a risk based over offense based is just trading one side of hell over another.

      • The Static-99R Is A Scam

        I certainly agree with you. I remember hearing that CASOMB and/or SARATSO might be in the process in modifying the Static-99R/SARATSO tool — though I don’t know if it will be for the better or worse. The Static tests are only as good as its weakest link — and the fact is that its “risk factors” derive from 1970’s Canadian/UK offenders (who were deemed “particularly violent”). Of course, CASOMB will use Karl Hanson to write “studies” that happen to endorse whatever “static” method the government — and its corrupt behind-the-scenes players — selects to employ.

  4. Agamemnon

    Glad to see our plight become fodder for good sport.

    This debate is not going to create new laws or abolish old ones. (It might change a few minds in the audience, but that’s about it) These are two law professors going into a competition to see who can make a better argument. Debates don’t award victories to the person who was RIGHT, they’re literally a contest to see which person can present facts in a predetermined format better (if a winner is determined at all). They don’t even have to believe what they are arguing. They are often assigned a topic and must then research and organize their presentations.

    Debates are a sport for the intellectual. That’s why it is often compared to boxing matches. And all we have become is equipment for that sport.

    • Roger

      HOW TO HELP MAKE REAL CHANGE: These debates are not about magical, instant change. It’s about planting seeds that may take a long time to bear fruit in people’s minds. Major issues in American history were debated fiercly and sometimes for many, many years before a major change occurred.

      That’s why we need to plant seeds individually, in the appropriate way and time to family, close friends, and so on. We don’t blast them with anger, but we share our hearts and pain.

      One of the best ways is to come in person when ACSOL and other support groups challange bad bills and laws. Speaking up in a team is easier than going it alone.

      It will make you feel like you are making a difference.

      I went to one hearing a few years ago with just a few ACSOL members (by the way, ALL OF US are ACSOL members by default!). The legislators said that was the first time they had the chance to hear from registrants in person. It had an impact on their decision.

      You will too.

    • David Kennerly, Bull-Splatter Analyst

      Except that Emily Horowitz is already fully-dedicated to our cause and has worked to influence others against the Registry. Also, people watch and are influenced by debates, including people whose views often count, even policymakers and analysts. I think that you are greatly undervaluing the potential for this debate. It is between two people who are fully-invested in their respective causes and who assume high profiles within them. Emily has spoken eloquently at several of our conferences and is the author of “Protecting Our Kids?: How Sex Offender Laws Are Failing Us.” I see her opponent as one of our enemies. These are not two disinterested parties sharing a college debate platform having been assigned their positions by an instructor. They are the real deal.

      • AJ

        Her opponent’s pedigree indicates she part of the “if it saves just one child” crowd. It could be an interesting debate.

  5. mike r

    2.2% recidivism rates in 1997 according to the CA AGs own antiquated reports. Far cry from “frightening and high” 80%.

  6. Jack

    That’s what I’m talking about. Thank god the democrats have finally found their spine. History shows us quite well that you don’t stop fascists or their sympathizers by appeasing them.

  7. It doesn’t work

    If the debator who is for abolishment’s heart isn’t in it, they will pretty much get embarrassed. It takes a special kind of person to present this argument. The spouse of a registrant who’s innocent childrens lives have been for no reason Dismantled, by the only & actual accomplishments of this registry monstrosity seems a good choice. Your honor, please?? For The Children.

  8. T

    The sex offender registry was never meant to keep everyone safe, it is a continuation of the punishment of those convicted any kind of sex crime and we think that war on drugs is the greatest contributing cause of US mass incarceration what about the sex offender registry, isn’t that the contributing cause of the US mass incarceration? Yes, abolish the sex offender registry no ifs, ands, or buts.

  9. Tim Moore

    Great debate. Glad I watched it and glad Emily ‘won’ There was one thing that wasn’t mentioned. I wanted to shout it out to the screen. It could have been a fitting response, when the sour faced lady claimed that the registry was valid if it could save one child. How many children of registrants must suffer shame and bullying in order to save that one child? Anyway, the voters have resoundingly seen through the stock fear mongering the opposition relied on and voted for E. Horowitz, champion. 70% down with the registry!

  10. B

    I seriously wish they would get rid of the registry for several reasons, for starters I can’t go home, I’m literally stuck in NY til 2031, if I was to relocate back to my home state i would automatically be declared a level 3, only in NY that I’m labeled as a level 1 offender, Nearly every state I’ve looked into decides your risk level by the crime you were convicted of instead of looking at the circumstances and the reason in why things happened, If I was to go back I would be subjected to a 2k foot residence ban which applies to all offenders in my home state, that ban practically makes every major city unlivable. Like I said I seriously wish the registry would be abolished and if it is or isn’t I can promise this the second I’m off the registry I’m gonna be on the 1st thing smoking out of N.Y. and I swear I’m not coming within 500 miles of N.Y. state.

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