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NY: Low-level sex offender monitoring by state coming to an end

A bill to extend supervision of low-level sex offenders for another decade failed to gain approval in the Legislature in 2016. Full Article

Join the discussion

  1. PK

    Unfortunately I couldn’t read the entire article.

    10 years extended to 20 years I think is enough grief for anybody.

  2. Kris Klein

    “They should not be removed from the registry,” said Assembly. Dean Murray (R-East Patchogue), sponsor of the Assembly bill, which was passed with strong bipartisan support in the Senate. He said Level 1 offenders are being released from supervision because the Assembly failed to act on his bill”

    Released from supervision or released from the registry? Supervision (parole) and probation are entirely different than being required to register for 20 years. Hardly any one does parole for 20 years although being on the registry feels like it

    • Cr

      Hardly anyone? Lifetime parole for RC’s is common these days. Lets not minimize what RC’s go through or if we are ignorant, lets do some homework.

      • Kris Klein

        Standard Felony Probation in New York State is five-years in duration and Misdemeanor Probation is three years

        http://criminaldefense.1800nynylaw.com/new-york-probation-lawyer.html

        Any more questions? Or are you just spewing something for the sake of wanting to argue?

      • Kris Klein

        “Lifetime parole for RC’s is common these days”

        No it’s not common. The vast majority of registrants are level one which means they’re either low risk or committed a minor crime. Therefore, level one’s aren’t getting lifetime parole
        ……….that just took a little common sense to figure out that one out

        (lifetime registry in some states, yes. But not lifetime parole)

        • Anonymous

          Kris, I think your looking at the wrong info. I’m not sure how it is in NY however in NJ all rso’s are subject to PSL OR CSL whatever you want to call it. It is parole or community supervision for life. Yes that’s right life if you Are a tier one you can petition to have it removed after 15 years however it is very stringent process and only about 30-40 petitioners are allowed to be removed. So while your right it isn’t exactly life it’s still a very low time for a tier one offender. I have to deal with a PO coming to my house pretty much every month without notice. It’s very stressful to say the least hearing that doorbell ringing and making sure neighbors don’t really see what is going on. So yeah.

        • Robert M

          I am a tier 1 in nj and can petiotion to get off in 2020 thats 15 years for me and as long as your nose is clean they will let you off. The rate of release from registering is increasing. you really have no shot and if parole is visiting your house every month you are still active. i finished mine with parole 2010. many of these people here are higher on the food chain. anonymous what part of jersey do u live, i am in north jersey, bergen county, what is your county cause it all seems to matter here anyway

        • Erwin

          It’s rare states will do lifetime parole for low level offenders. I know Indiana is trying it and New Jersey probably does it because that’s the state where Megan’s Law started.

          However, even NJ seems to be putting an end to this practice from what Robert says. He’s been off parole for six years. That tells me he was classified low level without lifetime parole and the ability to petition for removal from the registry after 15 years. Plus low level offenders in NJ aren’t listed on the public site.

          Parole officers probably pushed for this change because they already have their hands full keeping track of high profile criminals. Level One offenders are a waist of manpower. But they do make up the great majority of RCs in any state. So the one’s getting lifetime parole are in the extreme minority and they were probably initially classified as high risk.

        • Searching For Truth

          In New York, Level 1 offenders are about 14,000 out of 40,000. A plurality, not a majority.

        • Erwin

          As a whole, across the nation, the vast majority of registrants are level one.

          There’s always exceptions and I believe the reason level ones are a plurality in NY is because they use a static-99 point system that makes it very difficult to stay out of the level 2 & 3 category. For instance, first time possession of cp is always a low level offense in most states and under federal guidelines. But in New York State, they go by how many pictures, or the age of the person in the photo, or if you are related to the person in the photo. An offender convicted of possession can easily be bumped up to level 2.

        • Searching For Truth

          nomore “By the way, registering people in general and sex offenders didn’t start in California in the 90’s. It was long before that…”

          In 1947, California started registering sex offenders of the day. The idea was borrowed from Nazi Germany.

        • Timmr

          And California produced two Republican later 20th century presidents. I not sure what is being proven here. It is a diverse and confusing State on many levels.

  3. Anonymous

    Ny level 1 citizens who are registered cause very very little problems in society. Those who do will face the wrath of our criminal justice system same as repeat animal abusers and murderes, repeat gang violence offenders, political corruption reoffenders (do they re-offend?), and repeat, repeat, repeat domestic violence abusers.

  4. HOOKSCAR

    I’m glad for the defeat of the bill and am happy to see, yet again, an assemblyman put his foot in his mouth and call this supervision. Basically punishment.
    My question would be this. Since the mighty state of California doesn’t have a tiered system and we have the most registrants, what happens IF the state gets a tiered system? Because of due process, wouldn’t ALL register citizens have to be evaluated individually? That’s over 135,000 if I am not mistaken.
    Talk about a can of worms.

    • Timmr

      The state operates as if we are not entitled to due process. It is regulatory to them, like we are feral wolves to be tagged. Just lump some offenses here others there. There is no individuality about all this. From what I have read of the tiering proposal most people will be in tier 2. It appears that about 80 to 90 percent of the registrants are on the list for lewd and lascivious acts against a minor under 14 years of age, a serious offense. That places them in tier 2. Some of those will be moved upward to 3 because of Static 99 scores. I have no idea how many that would be. So I think you would have the vast majority of present registrants given 25 to life on the registry, Then again, you would have some Melendez or reincarnation of a Runner, introduce a bill that would make lewd acts a violent felony, placing most of the people back on the lifetime registry,

  5. Robert

    Too bad you can’t read the entire article

  6. Derek W Logue of OnceFallen.com

    I bet Laura Ahole and Parents For Megan’s Flaw are having a pity party right now since they will have a few less registrants to harass.

  7. G4Change

    “…Laura Ahole…”

    ROFLOL!!!!!! I got a good laugh from this one, Derek! 🙂

  8. 2.0

    If I am not mistaken, is New York not one of the states that “tier” their registry on a variant of the Static-99R scam? So it makes me wonder how many so-called “high risk” or “high-level” sex offenders are subject to lifetime registration scams when they are not at all high risk. An actuarial “intrument” that purports to predict human behavior, based on 10 so-called “risk factors,” is probably a scam. It’s just troubling when our great state would push the notion that, based on faulty science, one’s quantum of future risk must control whether one must register for life (as is disingenuously claimed by CASOMB’s tiered proposal). Hopefully advocates will work to expose and discredit the Static-99 Canadian fraudsters that give themselves the phony name of “developers” to make themselves SEEM more credible than they really are.

  9. GetInvolvedNewYorkers

    More congratulations to Janice and her team. I’m thrilled to see the new name and format.

    New York is still the best place for Level 1 offenders as long as that sad bitter person Laura and her paid Trumpite employees are constantly challenged and that we must all do! Remember, poor bitter sad Laura comes from and works in the Anus Mundi of New York State- Suffolk County.

    Please solicit the ACLU and NYCLU- write and express yourselves here and the more we write and help ourselves the better our lives will become.

    Only letters, peaceful action, Youtube, Social Media and whatever you can legally use will have an effect.

    • Doc Martin

      Exhibit 1 Friends of Laura Ahearn
      http://www.brooklyneagle.com/articles/2016/4/27/assembly-gopers-keep-sex-offenders-registry

      …..and some people on this forum want to keep insisting that there’s no difference between the Republicans & Democrats

      • nomore

        Is that one of your sock accounts above? There aren’t any differences. Good people in both groups but that’s not the norm. One day you’ll grow up and see that truth.

        • Doc Martin

          If I was a betting man, I’d place my chips on NY level one offenders who are probably saying yes, there’s a difference between the two parties (at least here in the empire state). The democratic majority just blocked our price club membership from being renewed by Nicole Malliotakis (DAM! Is she related to Theo Kojak?) and her Long Island cabal of GOP family value politicians
          So just waiting for “good people” and accepting that all politics is the same won’t get you nowhere in the real world son. Our fight depends a lot on politics, making alliances, and giving credit where credit is do. Hiding in your igloo, shutting out the world, and complaining about Cuomo & Pokemon doesn’t cut it Nomore…..of your nonsense

        • nomore

          I bring up Cali and you deflect to NY lol. The court stopped it, not the legislature. Many more places than just Cali and new York though. All we get from you though is misdirection and political head-up-assery. You go right own beating that drum, little drummer boy.

        • Doc Martin

          I didn’t bring up Cali because I thought you had enough upstairs to know the answer: Judges are appointed or elected son, and don’t think for a second that partisan politics doesn’t go into that process. The judicial makeup of the California & New York supreme courts didn’t come about in a vacuum. When vacancies comes due, judges are either elected or appointed by a governor. And that’s when all hell breaks out tantamount to Moses parting the Red Sea. Politicians from both parties battle for the best judge that represents their views. So far Dems have won that battle in NY & California.
          Jerry Brown made 3 appointments to the Cali Supreme Court, Plus he made 20 to the Cali court of appeals. Soon after, the California residency ordinances get overturned. No coincidence there, A Similar thing happened here in PA

          http://www.mcall.com/news/local/elections/mc-pa-supreme-court-election-20151103-story.html

          ……..and now we have headlines like this in 2016

          http://www.mcall.com/news/local/police/mc-pennsylvania-sex-offender-registry-retroactive-challenge-20160426-story.html

          Hey! It would be nice news for Jerry Sandusky if he ever got out

          The California & New York electorate have been trending democratic for years thus you’ll eventually have A. judges that represent their views or B the views of politicians who run that state or C All of the above. That’s why pitchfork & knife sex offender ordinances aren’t getting tossed in most southern and mid western states because of an ahem! a GOP lock on all levels of government

          And don’t pretend you don’t have some ideology son. At least I’m up front about mine. Always been a left wing liberal You pretend your nothing but you finally let it out by saying your a libertarian. So you do beat to some drum. I have nothing against Ayn Rand libertarians, I just believe many of them are republicans who like to smoke dope and get laid (I only like the smoking & getting laid part….Ha!Ha!)

        • nomore

          The difference is, I don’t go around here beating my ideological drum, “son”. Actually I’ve made it clear that I think it’s a bad idea to do so. As for the rest of what you said… my points still stand. Lawyers fought to stop another florida. that’s the only reason it ever gets haulted. One last point and I’m done… I’m in a heavily republicanized state and there are very little regulations and restrictions compared to Florida, Cali or new York. So yeah, I’ll run around with the moose and enjoy relaxing in my igloo. Also, why don’t you bankroll an “attack” on the Alaska case that helped to start it all? We might all benefit from that in one swoop instead of waiting for scraps from any partyThe difference is, I don’t go around here beating my ideological drum, “son”. Actually I’ve made it clear that I think it’s a bad idea to do so. As for the rest of what you said… my points still stand. Lawyers fought to stop another florida. that’s the only reason it ever gets haulted. One last point and I’m done… I’m in a heavily republicanized state and there are very little regulations and restrictions compared to Florida, Cali or new York. So yeah, I’ll run around with the moose and enjoy relaxing in my igloo. Also, why don’t you bankroll an “attack” on the Alaska case that helped to start it all? We might all benefit from that in one swoop instead of waiting for scraps from any party.

        • 72 FLH

          fact is this all about the HAVES , not giving a shit about the have nots , and your dam lucky the all the have nots don’t wake up and tell the truth about both Dems or Rep , truth is that everything is slipping away from us do to not taking responsible for the actions of people that are voted in , not holding them accountable for what they do in our names , I don’t see how things where better with bush in office , his dad as well for that matter , and a lib 40 some year ago is not the same critter as today , like there was Moon Glow back in the day , now just jerry brown , and he stinks of being payed off just like the rest of the talking heads

        • Timmr

          You said it well, the haves run things. They have created a whole surplus of workers and have left them to scrape a living in the service economy while the good paying manufacturing jobs have been shipped in the overseas direction; or else to enrich both government and their capitalist cronies by placing them in prison or in this glass cage called registration. But the have nots are by far a greater number, and it is sad that they fail to remember that one person has one vote. Instead they have been taught by rote to think in a tribal fashion, Dem or Rep, left, right, government, individual instead of as a nation. They adopt a tribal HAVE leader, picking fights on the most trivial matters, and so shun one another, instead of joining in common cause as sister or brother in an attempt to improve their common situation.

        • 72 FLH

          Timmr<< well said , matter of fact that so well put , , Grass roots thinking ! don't see much of that anymore , great to see,, thank you for your insight

        • nomore

          Yep, real deal. Ask 72FLH.

          The only following you do is the party line, with your head, right up your own arse.

          Check who caused the Tuttle mess. Democrats controlled that area. Ron Book wrote them (democrat/lobbyist) and a democratically controlled county put them in place.

          Follow those facts.

          Since Bernie is out, I’m guessing you’re a Hillary fan or anybody democrat fan.

          Anyway, dig a little, ole’Doc.

        • PK

          Hi I thought this Thread was about the NY Registry and Level 1 Offenders?

        • nomore

          Yeah, our particular argument covers them both since he keeps jumping states to avoid his original bogus point. He brought up the Tuttle mess and blamed it on a republican state, yet as usual, partisan hacks always get things wrong because of the blinders they wear. Those restrictions were enacted by a democratically controlled county and written by a democratic lobbyist. My point is, all sides are political enemies to RSO’s. As 72FLH points out, Ole’Dockers is a case of a “have” sitting high on his horse out of touch with reality. He’s sitting pretty while he bashes me for trying to give help to RSO’s and vice versa.

          A fine fellow, that one. Wonder low many RSO’s he has living in his apartment complex. lol

        • Doc Martin

          Now now! Don’t use 72FLH to get at me. I’ve been on this forum long enough to know he’s an old 60s hippie like myself. And he’s right that libs aren’t like they used to be. Many are too soft (except me) and don’t put up a fight. I understand what 72FLH and his family are going thru because I grew up in a poor family. I thank them for putting me thru school which led to me launching career a until I got in trouble with a young one. Hell! I was about broke when I bought my place in a what used to be a run down ghetto. Shoot! I didn’t know Lawrenceville would take off & become the in place. People from the burgh know what I’m talking about. At least I didn’t overpay like Neil Patrick Harris overpaid when he moved to Harlem.

        • GetInvolvedNewYorkers

          Seems New Yorkers are not wanted here
          I can never get a response
          let’s see if this is published
          Despite the name change, it’s still California centred

        • Robert M

          i live in nj and im a tier 1 myself, i hope this will ring true here as well, i can petition in 2020 to get off after 15 years . its a long time but if it comes true it will be a good starting point for everyone

        • Doc Martin

          I love New Yorkers! I’m a PA guy. There’s a couple of Jersey folks here to. You’re in good company

        • Doc Martin

          I think you forget how your scrap started with the old Doc. An OP went on a political rant about Cuomo, Pokemon, Obama and the Dems being responsible
          The Doc responds ‘well at least folks are getting off parole in NY unlike Mike Pence’s Indiana & offenders aren’t living under a bridge in Miami like they’re doing in the GOP state of Florida’
          I then said Dems are annoying but Republicans can be plain satanic
          And boy! You came in with guns blazing son! Saying I’m giving Dems a political pass & I’m blinded by my own propaganda.
          So if you really believe it’s non political & both sides are the same, why did you go off on the old doc instead of on the op’s rant? That’s because you’re wired to fit his your political views. You have political views but just don’t want to admit it (until it slipped out that you’re a libertarian) I straight up and admit I’m a left wing liberal. I believe the Dems get it wrong much of the time but republicans…well, downright almost all the time.
          Now I did support Bernie, but I’ll vote Hillary if nothing else because of SCOTUS. Most folks on this forum would probably agree me & it has less to do with political pandering and more to do with practically. Lawyers and advocate groups are only as good as the judges on the courts. It was the SCOTUS conservative bloc (the late fat Tony Scalia, Renquist, Thomas, Soutar, Roberts) that said the registry isn’t punishment. The liberal judges dissented. And you should know that from Smith vs Doe case introduced by a plaintiff from Sarah Palin’s I can see Russia from my porch Alaska. (BTW, Alaska is not all that conservative. Any state that just gives a free cheque away to people who haven’t worked for it must have some socialist bent) Anyways, liberal judges on federal & state courts is the current practical way to get many laws against registrants overturned. You’ll be waiting forever for a libertarian or conservative who believes in the constitution. There’s just not enough of them. So You Got To Work With The Army You Have—not The Army You Might Want Or Wish To Have ~Donald Rumsfield
          (Hey, my second quote from that guy on this forum. He was a disaster for the country by man! He had some good lines!)

        • nomore

          You made the first political statement. I merely responded to it. Just in an attempt to show you that political party doesn’t matter for us. Both sides have screwed us. You of course, being a frothing mouthed partisan fanboy, can’t admit that. Ice shown at every turn that you’re incorrect on your points but in true fanboy form you double down. By the way, registering people in general and sex offenders didn’t start in California in the 90’s. It was long before that I’ve proven that the Florida mess was put in place by democrats. Still you flap. And yes, I live in a shack, I’m sure you live quite a bit better than I, but that’s only temporary. Still nice of you to point that out, Hickory Dickery.

          Also, I thought democrats were all for living an offgrid back to nature lifestyle.. Sheesh, no pleasing you authoritarians

        • Doc Martin

          OP
          “Notice, its Democrats doing this. Cuomo is the son of a great liberal Democrat, and he is doing this, apparently under his executive authority, not because of some law the legislature passed — just like when the Obama administration did the same to send out horrible notices to other countries about registr8ge of International Megan’s law.

          Everyone expects this is all being pushed by the Republicans, but every time something is started up, the Democrats either are the ones pushing it or are unanimously (or nearly so) on board for it.”

          Now that’s a political rant! Plus the very comment the doc responded to. Maybe the op’s comment got lost on you because you’re blinded by your own ideology (chuckle! chuckle!) And you have a funny way of saying political party don’t matter when you shut your trap when the op was flaming Dems,
          And what have you shown I’m incorrect on when you haven’t even put up a valid challenge? I explained to you how a GOP introduced voter initiative put prop 83 into action in California. I explained to you how politicians & the electorate influence the makeup of judges on the courts……..most importantly SCOTUS. I even gave solid examples. Smith vs Doe turned nightmare on elm street when you have the wrong people (usually conservatives) on the court. Local Residency restrictions overturned in Cali, PA, Mass and other states when you have the right liberals on the court.
          Now, I must say you have a slight comprehesion problem. I never said the registry started in California (actually the ideal started in New Jersey by another republican Paul Kramer…but that’s a whole nother story) What I did say was Jessica’s law with the blessings of the Runners and I’ll…be…back!! Gov Schwarzenegger (another republican) got prop 83 passed thru direct initiative (no legislative action needed because that’s how dey roll in Cali) Soon after, the California supreme court took a bite out of the traditionally GOP County of San Diego and the rest is history with the domino effect of local restrictions falling by the wayside throughout Cali with R-Mellisa Melendez taking the last stand defending her town of Murrieta from oh my god! The perverts!
          Now the same thing could happen in Florida would you think? Not with a solidly lock in GOP majority on the courts & legislature.
          You keep mentioning Miami being democratic which is odd since the city has been run by I hate Castro! right wing republicans for decades, but lets say it is Democratic. Florida had a statewde 1000 ft rule put in place by Jeb in the early 2000s. Plus most towns and cities have even worst 2000 ft rules. So rcs said hey, lets go to Miami! And not for parties and salsa. Then sex offender hysteria was whipped up in Miami, they did the 2500 ft rule, and now people are living under a bridge. The doc will say a plague on their house for any Dems who were part of that but you’re still missing the big picture son.
          The Florida legislature & courts could easily overturn rc rules just like what happened in Cali, PA, NY, MA, and other blue states. You really think activists, lawyers, and folks over at Florida Action Committee haven’t thought about it or tried? They know Fl legislature & courts is stacked with conservatives. They know the stars need to align first before making a big push
          Alaska doesn’t have residency rules because there’ s hardly anyone up there He! He! Like a cop for every mile to enforce the law. You’d just have to worry about a vigilante comin at you with a hammer.
          I never said I’m a democrat…… I said I’m a left liberal but I do believe n some rules unlike most libertarians who aren’t grounded in reality. Heck, if it was up to a true libertarian, we have no rules banning discrimination against women & minorities, Alaska would look like an artic India with no environmental laws, and instead of nanny state big gubmint, you’ll have nanny feudal lords & mercenaries (think Blackwater) running your life. Sometimes its nice to get gubmint & authority off our back but what replaces it is often worst

    • Anonymous

      “GetInvolvedNewYork” Great work!! Can you specify who exactly we should be writing to? Ny senators? Legislators? Assemblymen? I’m not too privy to how ny government works but for sure I am a good writer. Maybe write to whomever represents the district that ahole is in? Maybe provide links. Do you have an active letter writing campaign or website for NY registered citizens? If not, can you start one?

      • GetInvolvedNewYorkers

        I will be speaking with my attorney here in NYC hopefully Monday regarding who at the NYCLU might be the best person in the meantime if Janice Bellucci or her anyone from her team could suggest it would be appreciated.

        If anyone knows of a reputable NY organization or similar please respond here.

        Start here! Just call and e-mail them and do not give up. Also, Newsday has been supportive as well as The Village Voice, NY Legal Aid, Prisoners Rights Project
        Contact the NYCLU ask for Jason Starr

        Main Office
        The NYCLU’s main office can be contacted via the following address, phone number, or fax numbers:

        New York Civil Liberties Union
        125 Broad Street, New York NY 10004
        212.607.3300 (phone)
        212.607.3318 or 212-607-3329 (fax)

        If you need legal assistance, please see the Getting Legal Assistance page.

        To contact the NYCLU’s local offices, click here.

        If you are a member of the press, please call or e-mail:

        212.607.3300 (phone)
        usehgal@nyclu.org (e-mail)

        Contact the NYCLU

        Main Office
        The NYCLU’s main office can be contacted via the following address, phone number, or fax numbers:

        New York Civil Liberties Union
        125 Broad Street, New York NY 10004
        212.607.3300 (phone)
        212.607.3318 or 212-607-3329 (fax)

        If you need legal assistance, please see the Getting Legal Assistance page.

        To contact the NYCLU’s local offices, click here.

        If you are a member of the press, please call or e-mail:

        212.607.3300 (phone)
        usehgal@nyclu.org (e-mail)

        Contact the NYCLU

        Main Office
        The NYCLU’s main office can be contacted via the following address, phone number, or fax numbers:

        New York Civil Liberties Union
        125 Broad Street, New York NY 10004
        212.607.3300 (phone)
        212.607.3318 or 212-607-3329 (fax)

        If you need legal assistance, please see the Getting Legal Assistance page.

        To contact the NYCLU’s local offices, click here.

        If you are a member of the press, please call or e-mail:

        212.607.3300 (phone)
        usehgal@nyclu.org (e-mail)

        And for those of you who just love Laura the Miserable look at her in real action here getting hysterical!
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvjqQ_i6yYU

        • David Kennerly

          There is also the National Center for Reason and Justice with several of its board members, journalists Debbie Nathan and Judith Levine, both New Yorkers, extremely motivated towards challenging America’s sex offender hysteria.

        • GetInvolvedNewYorkers

          Thank you David.

          A suggestion not to accuse America of ‘hysteria’ but preferably other terms such as ‘unconstitutional laws’ or ‘violation of the Bill of Rights’ etc

          I would be helpful if we all could supply names and contact info here on the board of any person or organization we should be addressing.

          Thanks!

        • David Kennerly

          I don’t use the term “hysteria” lightly. What we are witnessing, and have witnessed over several decades, is “hysteria.” Mass hysteria is precisely what we are up against with the conditions which give rise to these unconstitutional laws clearly a result of hysteria. By not accurately describing them as hysterics, we assure them that they are reasonable and well-intentioned if a bit misguided. They are not.

          Thank you for your thoughts.

        • SCOTUS SAVE US NOW

          Get involved, i would love to speak to you. I am in ny and in the process of looking for an attorney to see if several arguments i have hold any water. If you would be okay with emailing please contact the moderator.

        • GetInvolvedNewYorkers

          Please contact John325232@yahoo.com

  10. nomore

    I’ll make this short… You’re running off the page on my mobile so….
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mayors_of_Miami

    If you’ll notice, it was controlled by a democrat during the creation of the Tuttle mess. Sure you could ignore that and still push the blame to republicans just like you did and of course you’re talking out of your are when you say Miami has been mayored by “I hate Castro” republican as you can clearly AS FUCK see lol. Try googling first, flapping your toe-kissers next.

    The reason I “went after” you was because of the seemingly flippant attitude another rso showed in placing blame by party and giving a pass for his party. I’ve gone on to show you that you’re full of shite bud.

    Also my remark about the registries going back for a good bit longer than the 90’s was to show you that it has been a slow progressive build under the watchful eyes of both Democrats and Republicans. A registry has been in place since the 30’s…first for gangsters and then for us later on with ever increasing penalties so although Cali has finally put a stop to one aspect they let it build up to that point over a very long time.

    I would happily do the same on your definitions/misunderstandings of Libertarians and many of the irrelevant points and links you’ve provided but doing so is especially tedious on a mobile phone. And for the record.. Libertarian is an umbrella term so is democrat. I know there are many different variations as there are with Libertarians.

    Maybe one day they’ll get a standard forum going and we could go at it.

    I’d advise you though to seek therapy for your obvious narcissistic tendencies. Speaking in third person which is of course a red flag of.

    Take care dockers.

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