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MI: Judge: State sex offender registry can’t be enforced in pandemic

[detroitnews.com – 4/6/20]

A federal judge is commanding state authorities to stop enforcing rules under the Michigan Sex Offender Registry Act during the coronavirus pandemic.

According to an interim order U.S. District Judge Robert Cleland issued Monday, officials are “preliminarily enjoined from enforcing registration, verification, school zone, and fee violations of (the act) that occurred or may occur from February 14, 2020, until the current crisis has ended, and thereafter until registrants are notified of what duties they have under SORA going forward.”

On Valentine’s Day, Cleland declared the act unconstitutional and urged the state Legislature to move to bring the law into compliance.

Under the February decision offenders would still have had to report to their local law enforcement agency or state police post through mid-May, while orders encompassing Cleland’s ruling were drafted by the parties. After that, unless the state Legislature acts, the Sex Offender Registry Act would no longer be enforceable against those who offended before 2011.

Read the full article

 

Join the discussion

  1. Sir

    So per the Michigan order. I can finally go to/watch my sons football games with no fear of arrest?

    • Fuzzy

      I’ve been going to my kids sporting events for years. I’m not loitering, I’m there for a specific purpose. Remember, we aren’t expressly forbidden to step foot on school property. It states we can’t loiter and that a “reasonable person” doesn’t believe I’m there to seek out or have contact with a minor. When I take my daughter up to the field to do batting practice, I’m in zero fear of the cops rolling up and hassling me. I go to my son’s football and lacrosse games, my daughter’s softball games, basketball games, and track meets. A few of the parents are even local cops/sheriff’s deputies, and I chit chat with them. I’m not there for any nefarious reason besides to watch my kids compete.

  2. And I CK

    Bobby yes… I think what Tim is saying is that judge Cleveland is getting pissed off because people are calling. It probably wouldn’t be a good idea to push it too far because sometimes more is not better. He’s not happy with the legislature which is a good thing and we don’t need him being pissed off At us.

    • Bobby S.

      @ And I CK,. I agree with you, I even told Tim it wasn’t me, I don’t even know how to personally email or write Judge Cleland. I wouldn’t even do it if I knew how, I just wish he would get tired of this whole legislature thing and the fact that Whitmer keeps extending the so called State of Emergency Order. There is no more State of Emergency, what the bat shit crazy bitch doesn’t understand is it doesn’t matter how many confirmed cases there are what does matter is the fact the death rate is declining. It’s time to open up Michigan, and get on with our normal everyday lives.

      • Nick

        Bobby S… Looks like everything changed yesterday with the Supreme Court shooting down Whitmer‘s emergency powers. Looks like we’re back to reporting also. I would imagine the judge will again put a time limit on the legislature to get their act together.

        • Fuzzy

          Yeah I’m pre 2011, so I don’t know what I need to do now. Do I attempt to go register or do I need to wait until I’m told what I need to do? When I called MSP back in May, they told me I’m good and don’t need to do anything until I get something in the mail. Is that still in effect? This just creates more questions than answers.

        • Disgusted in Michigan

          @Nick…the governor’s current orders are still in effect for 21 more days. The MSC ruling did not immediately cancel those out. As far as back to reporting, Judge Cleland’s order remains in effect. You do not have to start reporting again until you receive notification in the mail from the state police. But I see this as a step forward now, because soon we should see the clock start ticking again and the legislature having no choice now but to rewrite the laws.

        • Bobby S.

          @disgusted in Michigan, actually when the Michigan Supreme Court, said her executive orders and the State of Emergency Order, was unconstitutional her powers were null and void. There is no 21 day delay. She has 21 days to try to dispute it, but she won’t and Nessal already said she will obey the Courts decision. So all her orders and her emergency orders no longer apply to any of us in Michigan. So I hope that now that this is finally over, Judge Cleland will finally start the clock, so people such as my self that are pre- 2006 and 2011 can finally be removed from this registry.

  3. Quietman

    @ Bobby S. Amen to your comments today. The Governor does have 21 days from last Friday,10/02/2020, to appeal the MSC’s decision that her emergency orders ARE unconstitutional. But, if the Attorney General does not submit the appeal I, too, am hoping Judge Cleland will start the 60 day clock for his FINAL judgment on our class action suit…and finally deliver us from this legal nightmare. Here’s hoping!!! I, too, am pre-2006/2011. Peace be with all of you.

    • RR

      @fuzzy bobbys. Quietman
      So pre 11 guys are we suppose to go in and register ? I tried to call msp post and got a long ringing no answer phone……..makes me lil nervous i know in march i talked persnally to msp sgt. And he asked when were u convicted i said 95 he said they were not registering pre 11 untill we get a letter in the mail with our duties moving forward no need to register so wtf i do not like the unknown any ideas anyone ……

      • MatthewLL

        No one presently is required to register in Michigan. Below is part of what is posted on the MI State Registry web page. No need to worried about it until things change.

        “The Court specifically prohibited the defendants and their agents, which includes members of the Michigan State Police (MSP), from enforcing registration, verification, school zone and fee violations of SORA that occurred or may occur from February 14, 2020, until the current COVID-19 crisis has ended, and thereafter until registrants are notified by the MSP of what duties they have under the SORA going forward.“

        • chris

          Well I got a phone call from an sergeant hoffman from the msp sex offender devison saying I had to change my address

      • Fuzzy

        @RR

        I was told the same thing by the Sgt at my local MSP post when I called in May. As a pre 2011 we don’t have to do anything until we get a letter in the mail from MSP informing us of what our duties are.

        • RR

          Thanks fuzzy i see on the msp page they took of tge header that explained everything …..

        • Josh

          @RR……I saw your post last night and went to the MSP SORA web page last night and the order/injunction is still posted on the main page. Unless you were talking about something else?

  4. MI in Chaos

    This is False…. If you are on Probation or Parole… YOU ARE REQUIRED TO REGISTER. FAILURE TO DO SO CAN RESULT IN A VIOLATION OF TERMS OF PROBATION OR PAROLE. I had to even contact ACLU about this, and under the advisement of Miriam Auckerman, she stated that there was nothing in the injunction court order from Judge Cleland, about probationers and parolees not having to register. Her recommendation is to stay complaint, and continue to follow registration Verification while on paper, and keep registering as required by SORA. So all you that are on paper, make sure you dont fall into the trap, even though MSP is not enforcing SORA, the courts can still violate you for failure to follow court stipulations and orders.

  5. Bobby S

    Hi All,

    I received this email today from, Tim from the ACLU if anyone is interested.

    As most of you know the court has said the Governor exceeded her authority to keep issuing Emergency orders because of Covid 19.

    We have a few weeks to get the answers we need, but the order was from the court and expires when the Gov. declares the crisis over. I think it is unclear if the interruption in her ability to effect executive orders would include declaring a crisis. As soon as we have more, we will email everyone. PLEASE DO NOT EMAIL ME WITH THE QUESTION WHAT SHOULD WE DO NOW OR WHAT WILL HAPPEN NOW. As for the clock on the 60 days starting, we will know more in the next week or two.

  6. Warpath

    Curious…….now the Michigan Supreme Court has shut down governor twhitmer‘s State of emergency declaration, does the clock on Judge Cleland’s mandate start again? Does the Michigan legislature finally HAVE to fix the unconstitutional SOR laws?

  7. Nick

    Everyone,
    TO All who watched the Michigan Supreme Court hearing, it is kindve obvious that we lost. The court is likely to make it Sorna complaint which means removal will likely not happen for anyone.

    The case was kicked down the road for WAY too long. The 60 day judgment may start with Cleland, but I can almost guarantee the Michigan supreme court will rule before then. This really sucks. I hate to admit, but this was a game of checkers, and the legislature pretty much did a check mate.

    I suggest you watch the oral argument on YouTube. The justices really loved the prosecutors argument.

    A bit sad, but most of us knew this would happen. We allowed the legislature way too much time to change the law.

    I hope you realize this was their strategy all along 🙁

  8. Bobby S

    @Everyone,

    Ok, i just got done watching the Michigan Supreme Court’s argument for Bett’s and all of us really. I was able to follow some of it, but most of it i was lost. So for are the Brain’s out there that watched this, and understands it, how did it go in your opinion, do you think we are in trouble, or do you think the MSC will be on or side in this, and how long does it take to get the MSC’s decision after oral arguments. Any help in explaining how this oral argument went would be very much appreciated. It sounded faverable, but then what to i know, i just hope this finally coming to an end, and those of us that should be removed are removed very soon. thanks again in advance for anyone’s opinion and assessment on how this went for us today.

  9. jason newman

    @janice
    I listened to the oral arguments on the People vs. Betts case before Michigan Supreme Court today. A lot of it dealt with severability of parts of the MSORN Amendmants (2006 and 2011). It seemed that the Solictor General was conceeding parts to keep the rest.
    He conceeded that the residence and loitering requirements may be unconstitutional. He named a couple others (No testing/professional examinations for tier qualifications and public website)
    Should/would we be accepting that kind of reasoning? That parts of SORNA are acceptable and parts are not? Does the Adam Walsh Act allow for that kind of severability?
    Thanks!

    • JohnDoeUtah

      Severability is always an issue, courts are bound to sever the unconstitutional parts, if they can without making the law unworkable.

      Keep in mind, they can always revert back to a Smith v Doe type law and probably pass constitutional muster. The burden is on us to show by the “clearest proof” that the effect is punishment.

      • Sheldon

        @kevin because the state is hurting for money.

      • TS

        Exactly @JDUtah

        Now, define what a punishment is, as we have done here recently, the true legislative intent, and how and why society takes the intended law as is and uses it on people, unintended of course but truly does. Pull that together, one can then detail in a court how society is using something for more than its original intention against others.

    • Kevin Kaminski

      More importantly.. Why did the legislature just literally raid the whole SORA account in the treasury? I’m not talking like half or some, they transferred every penny to gen fund..Hmmmm… See Senate Bill 1069

    • Tim in WI

      Bobby,
      A fact is even if some parts of Michigan registration are now deemed punitive by court however the obligation to serve the people still exists. And by that I mean, new laws can be and will be passed!
      What the determination here is about something else. This case (betts) admits punitive intent of 2007- 2011 updates to the original registration act ( Wetterling Act). This factor bolsters the minorities claim in Alaska V from 2003. The minority in that case deemed it ” unquestionably punitive” in intent\effect despite the Acts preamble describing the Acts purpose otherwise.

      There is a stark difference between “the people’s RIGHT to have a database” of known bad guys ( per conviction) versus the people’s right to pile on indentured servitude to a database’s maintenance for life. One group was given fair notice before the act was committed but none of the ex post pre Whetterling act defendants could have been. SCOTUS in Connecticut Dept safety v Doe (procedural due claim)

  10. TnT

    Any idea how long it will take for them too make a ruling on this case now that the case has been submitted ? Also are they asking that the tier system be severed as well ?

  11. Bobby S.

    @Tim in WI or anyone. Ok, call me an idiot or what ever ,but can someone or Tim in WI, please tell me in laymen’s terms or in words that a 5th grader might understand, what Tim in WI, was trying to say in his post to me. I understood some of it but then I started to get lost lol. So any clarification on what he was saying would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

    • New Person

      Translating the comment from Tim in Wi:

      The Betts case proved the registry’s intent was punitive with the 2007-2011 update to the registry. Betts supports what the Does and the dissenting Justices in SCOTUS Smith v Doe of 2003 case brought up, which was the intent of the registry was punitive.

      While new laws can be passed, new punitive laws cannot be applied to those before the new law passed, which would violate ex post facto (retroactively applying) punitive laws. This case (Betts) states the new registry laws are punitive and cannot be applied to those before the new registry laws were created, essentially, all those before the newer 2007-2011 laws are grandfathered from the newer 2007-2011 laws.

      == you can stop here for the translation ==

      A division occurs between following the rule of law and following mob rule (will of the majority). Because of false information (statistics), fear mongering is what sways the “will of the people” to step on others’ liberties. This is like scaring the US public that US citizens of Japanese descent need to be interred (involuntarily placed) into camps to be isolated and monitored during WWII, also known that Japanese internment camps. False recidivism rates for convicted sex offenders pushes the narrative (lie) that sex offenders cannot be redeemed and will always be monsters. This is what occurred in the SCOTUS case of Smith v Doe, 2003. To this day, we’re still battling that false information of high recidivism rates that make sex offenders all irredeemable.

      The point of view varies between judges. Colorado Judge Matsch identified the registry was punitive. Pushed higher up into his district court, they disagreed with Judge Matsch’s decision. If judges view us as people, then the registry is punishment. If the judges view us as not-people, but rather irredeemable pets, then all the requirements, old and new, are more valued to protect people and not really a hindrance on the irredeemable pets.

      Until the false statistic on high recidivism rate is accepted to be false into all the US court systems, then all convicted sex offenders are blanketed as irredeemable pets… we’re to be viewed not as equal human beings. Because we’re not human beings, the public will can easily continue to push to add more laws to control monsters and prevent them from becoming human ever again.

      The only reason why irredeemable pets as humans cannot be put down is because that is punitive, a cruel and unusual punishment. That’s a huge gray area that the public officials can exploit to the will of the people.

  12. Jack Lancaster

    Having watched the oral arguments in their entirety, both sides, for the Betts case, here is a basic summation.

    Our side is arguing that the decision already reached back in February should be used as a guideline on what to do with the registry as according to state law, and the federal SORNA should not be taken into account on the decision reached in the Betts case. From what I can hear, no one is disputing the unconstitutionality of SORA in Michigan, in fact the opposing counsel is in agreeance that the Current law is unconstitutional, but only within 3 or four parameters including residency restrictions, the public nature of the tier ranking system, and a few specific points concerning in-person-reporting. Our side is arguing that the few points concerning in-person-reporting that have already been found as unconstitutional should apply to more if not all of the In-person requirements as the burden is similar. There is a general focus on the ex-post-facto claim for unconstitutionality as it is punishment, but if it’s punishment in retroactive application it isn’t that far of a stretch to make it punishment for people sentenced after the fact. Practically anyone here could make an argument that SORA as is now lies in the 8th amendment area of unconstutionality when judged as a whole since it imposes probation/parolelike requirements on a person after their probation/parole. From what I gather though, the main point here is going to be between specific statutes and whether or not they can be removed from the law without screwing the whole registry up, but given how much time the legislature has had to fix these issues compared to other pieces of legislature they have acted on that ended up unconstitutional, I doubt that the supreme court will rule in favor of the state. it isn’t the job of the Michigan supreme court to write or rewrite a law for the legislature to make the law constitutional.

  13. RR

    Well whitmers reign is over basically and now what do we do i still have yet to recieve anything from msp moving forward what are we to do pre11 here jan95 to be exact what do we do at this point hire counsel? Anyone hear anything?

    • BM

      @RR – there is nothing to do! We just keep living our lives UNTIL we get a letter or the Judge says otherwise. The injunction is still in affect.

      • RR

        @bm…and bobby s.
        I hearya on being patient i just have high anxiety and swear we are gonna get railroaded on a traffic stop or some other innocent mishap where they are like ohhh gotya …oooops shoulda maintained your registration have no trust in justice or courts seen way too many railroaded guys in the 15 i did…..and now been out 12 the 25 is up and want like everyone else to be over weve been trampled on enough…..just venting fellas

    • Bobby S.

      @RR, I am also pre 2006-2011, conviction 6-19-1992. We need to just let this play out for now, I was just like you and wanted things to hurry and so forth, but what we don’t want to do at this point is hire council. That will just slow things down, and possibly make things even worse for us in the long run. We just have to be patient now, and wait for Judge Cleland to start the Clock,because now that Whitmer’s orders are now unconstitutional making them null and void, and even though the MDHHS has supposedly reinstated her so called orders, the MDHHS does NOT have that authority, so basically her orders are no more, and now we wait for Judge Cleland and/or letters in the mail. I highly doubt the Legislature is going to attempt to do anything concerning SORNA. So again it’s just a waiting game now.

  14. RR

    @Bobby s
    Any news i missed i havent herd or seen a peep regarding any movement in regards too letters mailed to us or any registering i get untill their is no pndemic clause in The language used just rwching out to see if anyone has heard anythin

    RR

    • Disgusted in Michigan

      @RR….nothing yet. We are still under the court order until Judge Cleland lifts it and the State Police notifies everyone in writing what our obligations will be going forward. Until then there is nothing you need to do.

      • Hopeful in MI

        That mean we can take our kids trick or treating? I know some stores are doing things so don’t have to go door to door with covid.

        • Disgusted in Michigan

          Don’t take this as written in stone, but I would say yes, because Judge Cleland’s order basically states the registry laws cannot be enforced until further notice. I wouldn’t tempt the police by openly flaunting anything, but if you want to do something harmless like take your kids trick or treating, I don’t think there’s anything anyone can do about it right now. Ever since the order, I have been living my life as if I’m not on the registry. Haven’t verified my address since last December, been going where I want, when I want, including taking my niece and nephew to the parks so they can play. No one has bothered me, no police have come to my door to verify that I live there, bought and registered a new car without reporting it, changed my phone number, and changed jobs for a much better one. If and when the time comes for me to verify, they’re going to be busy changing a lot of information about me. If I do eventually have to report, I’m going to say “See??? I haven’t reported in over a year. Look how dangerous I was during that time.”

    • Bobby S.

      @RR. Disgusted in Michigan, is correct nothing to do, we are still covered under the judges order. I know it’s frustrating, but we just have to be patient and wait for now. I did ask Tim from the ACLU, if there was any word yet, and his response was , no not yet, when we hear something and know what’s happening, we will post it to the website and send an email to everyone on our email list. His words not mine. So it’s just sit wait and be patient, sorry I wish I had better news for all of us.

      • RR

        Thanks for the replies and words of advice i get it like sometimes when i see no words here ,,,,that emptiness of the bullshit we all are going through puts me in a rabbit hole i missed out on a life changing job over this shit and it pisses me tge eff off…..ugghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh waitied since i was 19 for it to be over 28yrs later still like come on…..just venting fellas hope all are well and safe

  15. Robert Vandivier

    I was convincted in 2004. I’m so confused on what to do or how to go forward. I just talked to the MSP and they told me to follow the jurisdiction on which I live in. I just wish I could get some clarification on whether or not we are being removed or still have to follow the laws. Thank you

    • Len

      They will never tell you the truth .unless you pay for a lawyer.. But no they are not enforcing .they cant judge robert cleland made it so they cant enforce it whatever the federal courts say trumps state law

    • Len

      The federal courts trumps state law judge robert cleland is federal what he says goes!

      • SMP

        So what happens if you leave the country with zero intentions of coming back? Will you get in trouble for not telling them that you left? If so, how, if Judge Cleland have made it so the registry can’t be enforced at this moment?

        I do plan on leaving as soon as travel restrictions are lifted. Not sure if I need to tell the state that I am leaving. I know the Nichols case made it so you need to tell the state beforehand, yet, I feel we are in a special circumstance at the moment. I had originally planned on telling the state so that the state take me off of their registry, which in turn, would take me off the federal registry.

        • Guy

          I’m not sure about international

          I spent 13/25 years on Michigan’s registry as a tier 2 and just moved to Ohio this week. I went to change my address to my current place and the sheriff asked me to come back another time.
          When I spoke with him a couple days later they cross referenced my charge with their laws and since they would classify me as a low level offender I would’ve only had to register for 10 years. And being that I’ve been on Michigan’s for 13..as long as I live in Ohio I am no longer a registered offender!

          Tears of joy!

  16. JoJo

    Congrats Guy/. Enjoy ur freedom

  17. Dave

    I have a pre 2011 conviction from 2000. I called the city police where i register in March and they told me that i had to come in and verify. I have verified with them March, June, and September. This week I have had city police come by twice to do compliance checks while I was at work. I thought enforcement was suspended until we received a letter from the MSP. Has anyone heard of a change? Does anyone have an email for the Michigan ACLU that is working on this. I believe some of you have mentioned speaking with Tim? Is there anything that I can do to make them follow Judge Cleland’s injunction?

    • Hopeful in MI

      When I tried last April they told me no and that I would get a letter of what to do, until then nothing to do. At least here in my city in macomb county.

    • Hopeful in Michigan

      Last public email from Tim was on 11/2

      “Just wanted to let everyone know that we have no updates at this time. When we have some, we will put it out to everyone.

      We now can remove email addresses from our list so if you wish to be removed please let me know, give me your name and the email address. If you are getting more than one email from intern@aclumich.org I would be happy to try to cut that down to one. Please let me know your name and email address(s) that you are getting them on, and I will try to cut it down to one. Please let me know if you have one email address you would like to get the emails at or one you do not wish to get them on. Of course, if you if do not have any changes please do not reply to this email.

      Respectfully Tim P ACLU of Michigan SOR Specialist”

      • Josh

        @All in Michigan
        Just got a copy of the new proposed “fix” or alternative to HB 5679 that was put forth for review in committee. Tim(intern) from ACLU sent it over email and isn’t very happy about the bill in his own words. I read through it as best I can and to the extent I could understand practically NOTHING changes…

        • BM

          @Josh – agreed. I also read and the only thing that really changes is no Tier online, no identifiers pre 2011 and immediately changed to 3 days. What a crock. I think it’s worse than the previous HB 5679 that was introduced personally.

        • G4Change

          When I view HB 5679 http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?2020-HB-5679
          I cannot see any recent updates. The most recent action is March 25, 2020, and then there is a fiscal analysis from May 6, 2020.

          Is there a new bill number? Are they doing these changes away from the public eye???

          What the F is going on up there???

        • Nick

          I know next to nothing about the law but I don’t understand why after all this time they wouldn’t have to present this bill to judge Cleveland to get his OK to take it on down the road from there. Just another line of BS from the legislature here in Michigan.

        • Dave

          @g4change….. I hope that link that you provided is not the new bill……. how is that still not ex post facto? This is crazy

        • G4Change

          @Dave: The link I posted above was the bill that was introduced last spring.

          It seems like this may be the new one? http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?2020-HB-6088
          Mikem posted that link earlier, but I’m not sure if it’s what is being referred to here as it seems to be a bunch of definitions or tiers, etc.

          ALL of this is VERY confusing, and I have a feeling that it’s not by accident.

  18. Bobby S.

    @Josh @BM,. This is a joke, this is when Judge Cleland needs to step in now, and start having pre 2006 and 2011people removed from the registry ASAP, or shutting it down completely until registry is revised the way the 6th circuit and Cleland says , enough of these rediculous games that the State is playing. Do they think that we and the Courts ( Judge Cleland) are that ignorant that this bill is supposed to change anything give me a break.

  19. RR

    I too read new bill for thursday and im jan 95 amd should be off th9s list as mamy pf us shuld and i did not see anywhere we would be removed getting really frustrated and feel the last bill would of removed us in this situation……I get the fight for all but quit draggging us through the mud and effn us over i was convicted in like dec95 and my 25 is up was never sentenced to the chnges so lets get the ball rolling this is utter bulllllllsheeetttt i was 19 and 46 now ive served my bit and this registration so come on and quit effffn us around should of took last bill and ran with it now its getting worse like taking a cobb for 10 and having judge not agree and getn 20 enuff of the bs give us what is right

    • Josh

      @MICHIGAN
      I’m assuming that the aclu will have to mobilize again and rally everyone to speak against this. The original author of the bill 5679 is no longer in the state house and I couldn’t determine who made these “changes”…..this is bull$h/t plain & simple. I don’t know how or even if these changes go along with the changes that are trying to be pushed on us federally….I think we should just stop being surprised that the state of Michigan is incapable of doing the right thing…

  20. Saddles

    Guys actually much of this registry can’t and should not be enforced. Eight years ago after my trial and everything was over. I went back to the detective, and yes he was in sort of a bind since my lawyer copped out on me. Course he did give me a letter saying I was not a SVP.

    When I went to the detective he said to me, see I told you everything would be ok if you pleaded guilty. Well good for him. course I don’t think anyone likes to hold their breathe, Yes it took me some time to figure out that plea deal. Than when I ask him about other stuff such as me bringing down a milkshake and what that was all about, he said… Its all part of the game.

    Now remember I just had a bit of foul language, I didn’t actually want to meet this person and it was the second night instead of the first. Now if I would of had any porno on my computer or naked kids I would probably of been looking at jail time.

    10 years probation and if I had of signed a paper saying I was talking to a teenage girl, well that right their would be self incrimination by deceptive means, and they know that also as they are slick. Thats why one should have another wittness with you and than it can be a hard road to prove when the parole officer is not going to back you up.

    While my Probation officer was ok I sort of hatted to see him leave. I did tell him he should of chosed a better vocation and a week or two latter he said he didn’t like that. He’s retired but still in another area of law enforcement. Probabbly working voter fraud or something.

    Much of this registry with the pandemic is a nightmare, even before, but its all a lot of tricky persuasion which should be outlawed the way they work this whole ordeal, plus it bears on the constitution and moral and ethical reasoning leaning to entrapment.

  21. Dustin

    Frankly I hope Michigan never rewrites anything. As long as Cleland’s order remains in effect, there is essentially no registry there. If they ever do get around to writing new registry law and debating it, that would be a good time to point out that there was no sex crime committed by person with prior sex crime convictions in the interim. Or, if there were, simply being on the registry would not have prevented it. The longer they take, the easier it is to make the point.

    • @Dustin

      Some wise ass then would say, it was under reported unfortunately to justify their thinking.

    • Josh

      @Dustin…..couldn’t agree more with your post and the points brought up…..nobody given the current climate or circumstances is clamoring for a new SOR. I don’t care if anything gets done at this point and the status quo remains….our point that we’re not dangerous and this registry accomplishes NOTHING is being made for us…

      • Nick

        Got home late and I am not able to join in on the zoom meeting with ACLU. Hoping that one of you fellas can post a link so that we may listen to it later.

      • LPH

        “….our point that we’re not dangerous and this registry accomplishes NOTHING…” Wow!!!

  22. 20 years

    Just continue to violate my constitution rights there will be more lawsuits to come

  23. Dave

    Can someone please post the new hb everyone is referring to. Or a link please. Thank you.

  24. Dave

    Can anyone please post the new hb you are referring to or a link. I really appreciate it. Thank you

  25. Mikem

    I found this bill introduced in August.
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?2020-HB-6088

  26. Bobby S

    Hello everyone,

    just got this email from Tim from the ACLU

    Committee is cancelled tomorrow so no hearing on the SOR bill. We will let you know when it is rescheduled.

    • Sheldon

      No shit dude. Tim told me in a gmail that most likely pre 2011 are not getting off in the new bill. Fuck these motherfuckers in the legislatures. They are nothing but a piece of shit. Fuck this country and state worthless fucks.

      • Bobby S.

        @Sheldon, I’m not sure if your remark was towards me, but regardless of that, Tim doesn’t really know what’s going on no more then we do right now. As far as getting off the registry, they have to remove us sooner or later. The 6th circuit had spoken, and even SCOTUS has spoken, by denying to hear the case. It’s up to Judge Cleland now, to step up and do something soon and start having people removed. Trust me I know what your feeling right now. I was 23 when I was convicted in 1992 , never sentence by a judge to be placed on the registry since it didn’t exist in 92, but here I am now at 51 still waiting to be removed from a registry I should of never been placed on, along with many others on here. I just posted an email from Tim to let everyone know the committee cancelled the meeting for tomorrow. They probably know that bill is junk and doesn’t fix squat on the registry, so they cancelled the meeting until further notice.

      • RR

        They should of let last bill through us pre 11 are getting drug through the mud and i dont see any ex post facto relief my opinion this new proposal just hosed us pre 11 and were doomed

    • Hopeful in Michigan

      The committee meeting for the revised bill, which is still not yet available on the website by the way, is now scheduled for Tuesday Dec 1st, @ 9:30am.

  27. Quietman

    @Hopeful In Michigan, Thank you for the update. Peace be with all of you.

  28. Bobby S

    HB 5679 is in Committee on Tuesday Dec 1 2020 at 9:30 am
    Nov 25 at 1:34 PM
    PrintRaw message

    Intern
    To: Intern
    Judiciary, Rep. Graham Filler, Chair

    DATE: Tuesday, December 1, 2020
    TIME: 9:30 AM
    PLACE:
    Room 519, House Office Building,
    Lansing, MI
    AGEND

    HB 5679 (Rep. Lower)

    Criminal procedure; sex offender registration; sex offender registration act; modify.

    Well as you can see, they are bringing up the bill again. This is a bad bill, and it will do nothing for us at all. I suggest you pull out your email list that I sent to you before and use it again to send your comments in to all the people on the list. Make sure you send it to the Committee Clerk and ask her to send it to all the members. Even if you sent your comments in last time do it again and you can send the same comments as they have not changed the bill at all. We must work together to try to stop this bill. You may even wish to add a comment that the House and Senatate should be working with all the Stake holders including the MSP, the ACLU, and the Prosecutors Association of Michigan (PAM). If they fail to do so this will cause more problems for every Stake holder. Please us the list we sent out last time to send your emails to and the Governor’s office. I am not sure if they are going to let the public into the room and the way you can watch it is to go to the Michigan Government TV and watch it. This will not be a committee meeting where they are required to take public testimony because the bill has been read two times already and public input was given then. You may recall because we were able to stop the bill with everyone input at that time. To be clear we may be able to stop it again, but I am unsure. However, if the bill is stopped again then the House can bring it up again in the new session in 2021 however as I understand it they will have to take public testimony all over again. So, our goal is to stop it for now and hope they will work with us to make the needed changes. If, however, they bring it up again right away in the new 2021 session we will be looking for people to testify. Again, please use the list of people to email to we sent you last time. Save it always but of course the list will change in the new session 2021 and we will send it out to you when we are able to know who will be on what committee in the New Year.

    Respectfully Tim P ACLU of Michigan SOR Specialist

    Disclaimer: I’m not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. The information in this email is provided for general informational purposes only. No information contained in this email should be construed as legal advice from me or ACLU of Michigan nor is it intended to be a substitute for legal counsel on any subject matter. No reader of this email should act or refrain from acting based on any information included in, or accessible through, this email without seeking the appropriate legal or other professional advice on the particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer licensed in the State of Michigan

    • Jack Lancaster

      Keep in mind that the bill that is currently being debated in, the one mentioned here, was proposed by someone who just lost their seat in the election 3 weeks ago. In addition, the proposed “changes” don’t actually change anything of note other than remove loitering as a violation, specifying what constitutes a safety zone and allowing registrants with children to drop off and pick up their kids without getting thrown into the back of a patrol car the moment they enter said safety zone. Outside of that nothing has actually changed, and they actually think that this new bill will pass constitutional muster? The law is still punishment, and the felonies and misdemeanors that put average joe American on the registry haven’t changed either. Clarifying the technicals might remove the vagueness charges when it comes to being an unconstitutional mess, but it still leaves all the other unconstitutional bits in for people to sue the state into the ground. The law will remain unenforceable until Lansing and all the politicians in it actually make a law that works, and that’s going to be impossible for them because the premise they worked off of all those years ago was based on a lie that is not upholdable in any court where the judge has even the smallest amount of grey matter between their ears. The funds we put into the registry could be better spent on improving roads, schools, infrastructure, but instead it’s spent on propping up a boogeyman for the masses to beat up on (and outright murder in some cases) and for the politicians to get re-elected off of.

  29. Hopeful in Michigan

    Update for those who might not get the emails as there were three today.

    #1
    HB 5679 has passed out of Committee in the House. Now it goes to the Senate Committee. I suggest you now start emailing the people on the list I sent out last week that are on the Senate Committee that we think will be assigned the bill, and again to the Governor’s office. You should add your thoughts on how the bill should be changed such as no lifetime assignments for any one on the SOR and even a lower number of years on the SOR for everyone. Just to be clear just because they are taking away listing tier levels on the public SOR they are not removing the number of years someone must be on the SOR, the number of years on the SOR will remain the same as they are right now. I would also suggest that you say that if the Prosecutor in the County were the offences was prosecuted wants someone on the SOR longer than times assigned that he or she must go to the court at least 1 year before that person’s time is up and file with the court that the prosecutor’s office is asking for an extension of time. That a hearing be held and both sides can present evidence and that the burden of proof that a person’s time must be extended should rest with the prosecutor’s office asking for such extension. I would also suggest that you put in your email that all persons who are convicted in Juvenile court be placed on a non- public SOR, and further that when they reach the age of adult that their information be removed all together or 4 years whatever is sooner. I would suggest that massive changes be made to the in person reporting of changes in a person in person reporting, such as doing so by email. And that every place in the SOR were it says 3 days to report changes, that be changed to 10 business days to report. That a provision be added for people who have a disability, and it can be proven to the court at time of sentencing the person will be exempt from being on the SOR, also anyone who is currently on the SOR who has a proven Disability shall now be removed. I also am suggesting that if an offender was convicted of a SOR registrable offense and they can prove to the court that they had reasonable reason to think the victim was an adult under Michigan law and yet the victim was not an Adult under Michigan law that convicted offender will also not be added to the SOR. I am sure people have other ideas and it is of course ok to submit them.

    I want to add that even though we would all like to see the SOR abolished that is not going to happen. If it does stay the and it will we would like to see it used for Law Enforcement only and the public would not be able to have access to it. Well, that is not going to happen but of course you can ask for these things, but it will fall on death ears and they have made that very clear.

    In summary this time I would like people not to talk about how the bill will affect them, but instead recommend changes and or additions to the bill that will help everyone. Again, I ask you not to send them to me to check as your thoughts are your thoughts and not mine. I also do not need copies of them at this point but please save them yourself.

    Respectfully Tim P ACLU of Michigan SOR Specialist

    #2
    HB5679 is a completely inadequate bill that does not address the issues raised by the courts when they determined that Michigan’s sex offender registry is unconstitutional in parts, and poor public policy overall. The court pointed out that the registry, despite claims that it serves public safety, is not designed to evaluate whether a registrant is a danger or at a risk for recidivism. Registrants are not evaluated, and are subject to decades on the registry (80% are on for life regardless of their conviction, of their commitment to reform, and of their subsequent years of having a clean record), and the court appropriately questioned how such a registry that lumps everyone into a high-risk category with no credibility, could truly serve in the interest of public safety.

    As many of you know, the ACLU has been in court over Michigan’s registry for over eight years. And we have won all along the way. Every time the state appealed, the ACLU prevailed. But the legislature failed to change the law, so we sued again – first the DOE case filed in 2012 and then DOE II in filed in 2018. In the summer of 2018 we worked with a large group of stakeholders, led by then Senator Rick Jones, to finally fix the registry law to comply with the court’s decision. That workgroup made a lot of progress and we were close to agreement on a reformed registry. When that negotiation spilled over to 2019 under a new legislature, there was little interest and no urgency. The legislature failed to fix the law. So, in March 2020 with the court breathing down the state’s back and demanding they make changes, Chairman Filler (House Judiciary Chair) put together a workgroup to continue negotiations. But, instead of starting with the previously negotiated policy developed in 2018, a legislator who was never involved in previous discussions, and who had no knowledge of the evolution of the sex offender registry laws, introduce a bill (HB 5679) that was, and still is, completely inadequate.

    Rep. Filler said he would convene meetings to work out the details but only held two very short and uninformed meetings that did not include all the stakeholders, and during which no changes or negotiations were accepted. After being involved in stake holder meetings for three years over the registry, I can tell you that the meetings convened by Chairman Filler were not serious, and they cared not at all about actually fixing the registry and not at all about sound public policy designed to advance pubic safety.

    HB5679 is crap. The bill sponsor claimed that it “ conformed with SORNA (federal law)”, but Michigan’s registry law has ALWAYS complied with SORNA. The point of this reform is not about SORNA, it’s about responding to the court’s decision. To be clear, the ACLU does not support HB5679. We have asked for a substitute that we can support but it was not offered as an amendment during the hearing today, and that’s a shame because it is good pubic policy. Please make sure, as you reach out to House members who will be voting on HB5679 as early as today, to tell them they should demand the better substitute. Some of the components include:

    15 year maximum with a registrant automatically removed after ten years if no subsequent crimes and completion of certain treatment
    Law enforcement only registry – no public registry
    Removes HYTA (once successfully completed) and expunged cases
    Significantly limits the offenses that result in registration
    Ends tier classifications and public posting of them
    Juveniles may seek review of registration requirement
    Person may petition for removal at any time
    Any additional collateral consequences beyond registration must be specifically approved by the court and narrowly drawn
    Allows for mail and online reporting
    One annual in person verification
    School zones only if specifically imposed on an individualized basis and with exceptions for parents/legal guardian activities

    As a side note, when a public interest organization sues the government, like we did with DOE and DOE II, the organization is entitled to fees when they win legal cases. The State of Michigan has already paid the ACLU over $1.4 million dollars in legal fees for our six years of work on the first DOE case, and they will likely be forced to pay another large sum for the three years of work on the DOES II case. The longer the legislature fails to fix this law to the court’s satisfaction, the more money it will cost taxpayers. We believe the state has a much better use for this money and it is irresponsible for this legislature to continue to shirk their duty, wasting taxpayer dollars on both a wasteful registry scheme (Michigan’s registry costs the state about $2 million a year to operate) and on legal fees.

    In addition to House members who will vote on HB5679 today and tomorrow, the Senate Judiciary and Public Safety committee, Chaired by Senator Lucido, will hear the bill next week. Please start reaching out to the Chair and the committee right away.

    Thank you!

    Shelli

    Shelli Weisberg

    Political Director
    American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan
    2966 Woodward Ave. Detroit MI 48201

    #3
    Based on the number of questions that I am getting; I am going to make this real clear! Tonight, you should email and call your elected House Representative and ask them to vote no on HB 5679. Call again tomorrow and make sure they know you are a voting member of thier District, and you are asking them to Vote NO on HB 5679. This is how you look up who that person is and when it asks for your address just put in your zip code. Some Zip codes are divided so you may have to put in your address then to find out who it is. They do not know who or how you got thier phone number and email address. https://openstates.org/find_your_legislator/?lat=42.64&lon=-84.53&address=48842&state=

    Respectfully Tim P ACLU of Michigan SOR Specialist

    • Losing hope in Michigan

      Well the H-2 sub passed the house…let’s hope the senate will make the needed adjustments. So many problems with this bill from not addressing the constitutional problems all the way down to the illogical change to report in “3 days” not even business days.

  30. Scooter

    I would like to get involved some how in this i have been on this registry for 20 years and tired of the hurdles they keep throwing at us and I read the forum and I am disgusted with how they think this is unconstitutional when there no privacy its punishment due process is a jk its about money and the power to dictate your life its like a school yard bully on a power trip I have called my senator of my district I doubt they listen to there messages but did my part hopefully we can get these incompontent state representatives to start following the constitution and stop abusing there power and interpreting the constitution the way they seems to fit sorry about the rant but its time to make them realize that they are not above the constitution

  31. Bobby S

    Hello Everyone,

    I got this in an email today, and as usual , i don’t understand what it means exactly, except more drag on of Mr. Bett’s case. So for those that are interested here it is, and if some one could explain what it means i would appreciate it. Thank you.

    Order
    Clerk
    September 11, 2020
    148981(80)(81)
    PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN,
    Plaintiff-Appellee,
    SC: 148981
    v COA: 319642
    Muskegon CC: 12-062665-FH
    PAUL J. BETTS, JR.,
    Defendant-Appellant.
    ______________________________________/
    On order of the Chief Justice, the motion of the Gratiot County Prosecutor to file a
    response to the brief amicus curiae of the American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan is
    GRANTED. The response submitted on October 5, 2020, is accepted for filing. On further
    order of the Chief Justice, the motion of the American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan
    to file a supplemental brief amicus curiae is GRANTED. The supplemental amicus brief
    submitted on October 6, 2020, is accepted for filing.

  32. M C

    It doesn’t really mean much. It’s mostly procedural because these types of requests to file briefs are usually granted and they aren’t new briefs they were previously submitted before the oral arguments on 10/7 but not accepted by the court.

    I looked up this case history. The simple explanation is that the ACLU filed a amicus curiae brief (I think this was filed Sep2 and granted Sep 11, 2020 in this and that the Gratiot County Prosecutor felt the need to respond to something mentioned in the brief so felt the need to file a response to it which they filed with their motion to file it on Oct 5. Two days before oral arguments were heard. As such, the ACLU must have felt that they needed to file a rebuttal as a supplemental brief to their original amicus curiae probably to counteract an argument in the Gratiot County Prosecutor response. They requested to do this the day after by motion on Oct 6 and filed with the brief. The court just accepted these briefs into the record yesterday. It should not delay anything.

    • Bobby S.

      @MC, Thank you for the clarification and explanation, very much appreciated.

  33. Scooter

    So since this bill pass threw the house does that mean we have to take it back to court since it pretty much the same thing we’re are ready required to do its seems to me this bill is still unconstitutional I thought the federal judge gets the final say on the bill this is shady politicians at there finest

    • Josh

      @scooter….it also has to pass the senate and then go to the governor to sign into law. There are steps that still have to be taken. The answer to your question is..Yes. If this passes there will be more litigation which I believe has been the State of Michigan’s strategy all along…to just tie this thing up in court for years while maintaining the status quo…

    • BM

      @Scooter – the bill hasn’t passed Senate or signed by Governor yet, so it is not a bill. That said, Judge Cleland doesn’t get to sign off on anything. If it is unconstitutional, we will have to file another suite. Seeing that it somewhat closely mirrors the Federal, I’m not sure the new bill would be declared unconstitutional. The 6th Circuit recently upheld the Federal statue as not punishment. It is a joke and the its on us at this moment.

      • NICK

        I don’t understand how the sixth circuit court can point out the different aspects of sorrow that are unconstitutional and then turn around and say that it’s not punishment? Is that their way of taking away ex post facto?

      • TS

        If it warrants it, then an injunction can be requested of the court, I believe, against the new law if it does not take into account the Judge’s decision in hopes of getting a more expedited legal review. Not saying that would happen, but it is a route.

  34. Scooter

    thank you for the insight on this I feel as if we are looking at a never ending battle i feel like there’s no hope in this situation everytime I think there’s light at the end the switch gets turned off I feel your right they will keep tying this up in court all the registry was created for was to get money and in trape us where they can put you back in jail its nothing but a racket i am sorry but i am just frustrated as many of you are i just wish this nightmare would end

  35. Scooter

    well that bill passed threw the senate so what now. Do we go back to court just curious how this is gonna play out

  36. Scooter

    Senate pass the bill so just wonder what the next step gonna be since they passed a unconstitutional bill

  37. Scooter

    well bill SB 5679 pass threw the senate so now I am curious whats gonna take place for us all now

  38. RR

    At this point we are getting dragged through the mud the whole expost facto is in my eyes a travesty i was 19 and sentenced during another time… so if they make 3rd drunk driving a life sentence do they go back and say everyone pre 2021 has now a life sentence ? Heck no
    Im at the point that if they should of let the proposal prior go through a good chu k of us would of been finally free i understand the law post 11 is messed up but why do we continue to be punished for people who co mited crimes post 11 do it in stages pre 11 fight and post 11 fight not pre 11 espost gettn railroaded for the sake of post 11 when i cught my case this law wasnt even enacted so come on michigan get it together ive called daily always an ansering machine theyll get sick of my calls but deaf ears im sure…….so sick of this shite

  39. RR

    And of course we get the broomstick and if being in the mud puddle wasnt bad enough were drug through it as this bill totally and continues to ruin lifes…..aclu should of let last bill go through because us pre11 guys and gals would of been cleared and off ut nooooo everyone gets boned cuz of the post 8 amd 11 pathetic…….

  40. Detroit

    Nick:
    The 6th Circuit already ruled that Michigan’s registry is punitive. Michigan cannot take this victory away through any legislation, including the legislation that Whitmer just signed. The die is cast. Either you are covered under these court decisions or you’re not.
    There is no doubt that Michigan will be forced to take thousands off of the registry. The big question is how they will be removed. Michigan must make 44,000 individual determinations and this won’t be done in a single day.
    You have to remember that we are in uncharted territory. Be patient. Does II most likely will become final in 2021 and things are really going to get interesting after that.

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