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MI: Whitmer signs bill with long-awaited changes to sex offender law

Gov. Gretchen Whitmer on Tuesday signed a bill that would eliminate school safety zones and certain appearance requirements in Michigan’s Sex Offender Registration Act. Full ArticleFull Article

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  1. Detroit

    This doesn’t affect anyone on the registry by Does II or other litigation. Nor does it affect Michigan’s registry being placed on hold during covid. Michigan cannot force anyone to register until the federal judge lifts his current order which is expected to take several months.
    This primarily affects persons whose offense occurred on or after July 11, 2011. Most non-incarcerated offenders will be removed from the Michigan registry after Does II becomes final. We are in the planning stage to remove the remainder. Wish us luck.

    • Josh

      @Detroit….
      This law that was just signed today that supposedly fixes the unconstitutional flaws and brings it largely into compliance with the federal statute does NOT release tier 3s from Michigan’s SOR. If Judge Cleland decides that the state did enough to fix the unconstitutional flaws then HB 5679 stands….The way I see it playing out is the ACLU having to file another class action if Cleland says this is enough to satisfy the flaws….continued litigation was always the state’s way of never having to face up to the WRONGS inflicted on us….You keep saying that we’re all getting off if we’re pre-2011. Sure doesn’t look like it bud….

    • Josh

      @Detroit
      And who’s us? Why should we wish you luck? You keep propagating all this information and some of it sounds good in theory but you told everybody in Michigan to file a 406. Problem is that Tier 3’s don’t even qualify to file except for a few very select instances. I keep asking you to cite your sources and you refer to Does 1 & 2. Most of us have read those and the current ruling and legal injunction put in place by Cleland. The state has their opportunity to fix and they have. Not anywhere near good enough in my opinion but possibly good enough for the judge. You say you were never a registered S.O. So why are you here? Why are you helping? You have a family member affected by all this? You say you’re not a lawyer but you offer advice in generalities. You always seem to get butt hurt when somebody has the nerve to question you or the sources you won’t cite for us. Are you involved with the ACLU in some capacity or the Oliver law group? Lastly, you seem to think that if people don’t buy what you’re selling then they must not be devoted to the cause and don’t care to get off the registry. I call Bull$hit on that specifically. I’ve attempted to explore EVERY legal avenue possible without being foolish, reckless, or wasteful in what I file…..I’ve spent over half my life on this fucking registry so don’t question my desire to have this punishment removed that’s inflicted daily in the court of public opinion.

      • BM @Josh / Detroit

        Josh, I have to agree with you. I have read Does I / Does II more than a few times. I’ve also read what Detroit has said on here in regards. Yet the 2006 / 2011 Amendments no longer exist and Cleland could essentially say it is MOOT. Period. Cleland would have to determine that the new law is STILL in CONFLICT with the 6th Circuit ruling ie: lifetime without determination, reporting requirements, in person reporting, etc. If Cleland doesn’t, then there will have to be a new suit filed completely and back to square one. The new lawsuit will have to go through all of the same Mendoza factors to determine if it is in fact “punishment” and unconstitutional in TOTO or if there are parts that can be severed. I’m not an attorney but I’ve done my reading. I also take offense to Detroit’s comments that we don’t care. I’ve advocated, I’ve written and called and I donate monthly to multiple groups on our behalf. I’ve sat back waiting to file suit on my own behalf as this SH*T show played out. Not how any of us wanted it to go but I’m not giving up the fight.

      • Disgusted in Michigan

        @Josh…you took the words right out of my mouth. This Detroit dude keeps talking about the DOES order saying pre 2011 will be removed, but NO WHERE in Cleland’s order does it say that , so I don’t know where he’s getting that from. This new bullshit law now essentially keeps all tier 3 persons on the hit list for life. Cleland cannot do anything about the new law until it is brought into court, and we all know how long that will take. He ordered changes to be made and the Legislature made changes, but not enough, so it has to go back to square one and start all over now.
        And this Detroit dude saying to file a form 406 is bullshit because you are right. There are no provisions in the form for a tier 3 person. This guy is blowing smoke up everyone’s asses and even admits he’s not a lawyer, so why are we even listening to him? I keep asking him where his information comes from saying pre 2011 will be removed and he keeps saying its in the DOES order, and its NOT. If Cleland had ordered pew 2011 people to be removed, then I would not see my name still on the hit list today.
        I’ll listen to lawyers and regular people who can back up their words with proof, not someone who keeps providing “legal” advise without a license.

    • R33

      @detroit. If you were convicted prior to 2011 and you had a 25-year time frame on the SOR and in 2011 they changed you to Tier 3 lifetime on the SOR, HB 5679 signed into law by the Governor will keep you on the SOR for lifetime.

      The ACLU legal team and legislative team will not be giving up and will set our next steps.

      Respectfully Tim P ACLU of Michigan SOR Specialist

      • Concerned 99

        Tim, the way it’s written now for HYTA is confusing. I spoke with a lawyer, he said the way he reads it is that everyone that successfully completed HYTA will be removed period. It states that except as otherwise provided in this subparagraph, being assigned to Youthful Trainee Act before October 1, 2004. But in the next sentence it states an individual assigned to and that successfully completes supervision will not be considered a conviction for purposes of this act. The second sentence essentially takes me back to the opening of the subparagraph where it says expect otherwise provided in this subparagraph. So, does that mean the second sentence about completing HYTA supervision successfully means you are discharged no matter when the “conviction” of the offense? Again that’s what I was told by an attorney. I know you’re with the ACLU, are you guys under the impression all successful HYTA cases will be removed?

      • Lost Hope

        With a 2016 conviction, this new law provides me relief as I can attend my youngest school functions now, well in March but with her graduating in May I have missed everything meaningful at this point. It probably means a job or 2 someday in my life might be available in the old safety zone or the off chance a rental will accept me. The law also makes my reporting requirements stricter unless by some stroke of luck the MSP sets up a way to do reporting online. The HYTA changes are exactly what a young person needs to change their life for the best and this will have a huge impact in their families. Unfortunately a set aside and HYTA is not an option for me.

        Do the pending Does cases have any impact on me? Looking for some hope here

    • Burned-again

      Seriously. Knock it off. Most people will not be removed. All the tier 3 folks are stuck…pre 2011, pre 2006…it doesn’t matter, you are on it. So much for logical thinking, a sympathetic AG or Govenor. Once again the hot potato was thrown to protect the hands of the “important” politicians. They are all the same…thanks ACLU, at least now I can try to fight with a lawyer instead of wasting time with this class action suit that did nothing but take my prescious time. Detroit, this jailhouse lawyering you are doing is giving false hope to folks who don’t know any better. Knock it off.

      • Josh

        @Burned…
        AMEN! I have wanted nothing more then the opportunity to litigate MY case and take my chances with MY lawyer. It’s been 3 years give or take since Does II was certified a class action and locked us out of court. Hopefully the time has come where somebody can score a meaningful victory where something tangible and real will result…..@Detroit…congratulations on all your success/businesses/money and thank you for all the registrants you’ve helped. Just don’t break your hand patting yourself on the back. Real humanitarians don’t look for recognition…just saying. As for the legal advice you’ve been dispensing. In theory it might be correct but we’re boxed in by Does II. We could cite Does I & II. Temelkowski, & the 6th circuit decisions in individual lawsuits and probably win but we sit and watch the aclu play the part of the nice guy. Well that hasn’t worked because we don’t have any practical or REAL change. We’re still 44k strong and adding to it daily. We are supposed to be grateful to the ACLU but what have they REALLY accomplished? It took a pandemic to get us “temporary” relief. Driving any car, no verification, watching our kids play sports on school property….that’s real

      • Erick

        My offense was in 99… part of my sentence was to register… there was no fee to pay… and it was 20 years and done… as i understand it… since then they changed the requirement of a fee to a one time payment of $35… i paid it… then all of a sudden… its changed AGAIN… to $50 a year for 10 years or buy out for $500… being on the registry was part of my sentence… its in the sentencing transcript… how can they now designate anyone as a tier 3… dictate that im on it for life… and now pay $500…??? No… its double jeapordy… its expost facto… and unconstitutional as all hell…
        Here’s an example… lets say I commit a murder today… we don’t have the death penalty in Michigan… I disappear for 15 years… however… 2 or 3 years later the voters approve the death penalty for Michigan… they pick.me up 15 years later… can they give me the death penalty… NO… and I know why… the law at the TIME I COMMITTED THE CRIME DID NOT ALLOW FOR THAT… so they can’t administratively give me the death penalty… unconstitutional… double jeapordy… expose facto… now… there was a case brought against the Michigan Parole Board maybe 10 years ago that was WON by the inmates serving a life sentence in Michigan… the litigants brought suit arguing that they were entitled to a parole hearing every 5 years after so much of their time was served… the parole board had been denying hearings for this group… the lifers won because during the era when this group COMMITTED their offense the law was that they were ENTITLED to a parole hearing every 5 years… they have a right to that… and the parole board has no authority to change that… neither does legislature…
        Do you see the point here…??? When I committed my offence… the law was 20 years registration… no fee… and thats what I was sentenced to…
        My 20 is up this year… I’m not doing it any longer… I’m not paying that 50… the law in and of itself is unconstitutional…
        This is all a bad joke… they can ram that Scarlette Letter up their asses… im homeless anyway… and im not gonna tell them where I stay… and if I am arrested I’m filling a motion to quash… what’s gonna happen then is that it’ll be granted because they already know that this whole sharrade is bogus…

        • 16 block

          Eric… You are right… It started at a $35 one time thing and then it switched over to a $50 once a year. Don’t be surprised if it gets bumped from that. Would you pay $500 a year to remain free and out of jail? I heard that the money that was extorted from us by the state Will be addressed by the Oliver group as soon as all this other garbage settles down. It’s unbelievable what the lawmakers think they can get away with.

    • Dr.

      @Detroit,
      So can pre 1995 registrants, sue for: 1 ex post facto
      2 due process
      3 extortion
      4 stolen personal property (dna) 2006?
      5 slander
      And of coarse lost wages and attorney fees!
      If the 6th court has any grounding!
      Four years ago?
      And another thing, I don’t expect to see justice in my lifetime, so is there a way that I can get justice to my children, if justice is ever served.

  2. Brandon

    Another useless Governor, throw her ass in jail. She’ll be causing more harm and it should come out of her and the legislators pockets defending this bull crap. Pay them jackshit till the actually do the right thing and stop playing whack a mole!!

    • Chad

      Well, I for one, do not put this on the Governor. Her only other option was to veto it and that was not going to happen. I am sure Nessel and whitmer know this is not going to be enough to appease Cleland but it punts the ball down the road until the new legislature is seated. Short of a veto, if she didn’t sign it, it still would have become law in 15 days.

      • SR

        But she could’ve veto’d it. She chose not to to appease the legislature and mobs.

  3. Eric

    This is a step, but just another bandage on the severed artery. People like her claim to be advocates of the people and equality, when will one of them speak out about the brutality of the registry? People are forced into homeless camps, can’t find work or housing, can’t have relationships or even live with their families because of the registry. The registry is the ultimate form of discrimination. It categorizes everyone the same regardless of offense. If democrats are for the people, then why are none of them standing up for this across the board persecution of a group of minorities?

  4. Brendan

    I wonder if someone was convicted in another jurisdiction/state under a similar youthful offender act like the Holmes Youthful Trainee Act such as Florida’s Youthful Offender sanction, if Michigan will recognize that and not require persons that establish residency there to register. That would be a potentially good move for me to the state of Michigan if so.

  5. Quietman

    I, for one, am thankful to the ACLU for their continued assistance in this ongoing legal travesty called the Michigan SORA. I say, “Thank you, Tim and company at the ACLU.” I believe in my heart that they will stick with us (people forced to register), as we continue to deal with this UNCONSTITUTIONAL CRAP that “our elected officials?” have decided foist upon us, AGAIN!
    I reckon we now wait to see what Judge Cleland has to say about this latest “lame effort” by the Michigan Legislature. In the mean time, Tim has told us that the ACLU are working on their next moves in this continuing UNCONSTITUTIONAL drama. May we all have a peaceful and safe “Happy New Year.” Peace be with all of you.

  6. JohnDoeUtah

    Appears to me the State is betting on the FACT that SORNA has been upheld as constitutional. So if they model it, they are good. But, that ignores the rebuttal of frightening and high observed by the Sixth Circuit. The question remains, what kind of conditions, if any, can you put on a class of offenders for public safety before the State is required to prove current dangerousness?

  7. Detroit

    R33:
    I am more than familiar with your work with the ACLU. I appreciate you volunteering your time for this cause. I am involved in several causes and this is one of the causes I am involved in.
    Rest assured, I stand by what I posted. Share the following with Miriam Aukerman and I am confidant that she will agree with me.
    HB 5679 doesn’t make any changes to lifetime registration. It moved subsection (12) to subsection (13) but made no substantive changes.
    The 6th Circuit Court ruled in Does that the registry is punitive. This means that Michigan cannot extend any registration period any more than it can extend a prison sentence. You have to remember that sex offender registration is an administrative process. As an administrative process, their actions are solely ministerial. They have no discretionary power to add persons to the registry or keep persons on the registry who are not required to register per statute.
    If a person was convicted of an offense and began a 25 year registration period in 2000, his registration term will expire in 2026. In 2011, the state of Michigan extended his registration to life. This directly conflicts with the 6th circuit’s holding in Does that the registry is punitive. Once Does II becomes final, this registrant would receive a date certain to be removed from the registry in 2026. If this person had a 10 year or 15 year period which began in 2000, they would be removed once Does II becomes final. They won’t be removed the day Does II becomes final. The big question is how they will be removed because the state of Michigan has to make 44,000 determinations which can’t be done in a single day. Obviously, registrants with money for attorneys can go to court for immediate relief, but registrants without money for an attorney will have to wait until this case plays out.
    Share this with Miriam Aukerman and I’m confidant that she will agree with me.

    I have been involved in this cause for some time and am in contact with registrants on an almost daily basis. I own several properties and do rent to registrants. I currently have 2 registrants on my properties and have several in the application process.

    Rest assured, I put my money where my mouth is. I have been helping a registrant in Indiana for several years because I am confident that this registrant is not required to register in Indiana. This registrant did 3 years in prison for their next to last FTR. In the FTR after, I told the registrant to demand a jury trial and the case was dismissed. This registrant was arrested and charged with another FTR in a different county in January of 2020 and is currently awaiting trial. I sent my reasoning why this registrant is not required to register to this registrant’s attorney and when he ignored me, I sent a copy to the judge. The court appointed attorney reached a plea deal for this registrant to serve only 4 years in prison. I located an attorney for this registrant and in September loaned this registrant $10,000 for an attorney. The prosecutor immediately offered this registrant probation. This registrant’s case is still pending.
    A lot of people on these websites criticize me without knowing me. Rest assured, I have done well in life. I can write $10,000 checks all day long without worrying about any of them bouncing. I cannot respond to each of their comments and don’t lower myself to the rest.

    I have been helping registrants for several years. In the last 4 years, I have received over 400 letters from registrants seeking my help. I trust you. I will be happy to show these letters to you and take you on a tour of my properties. I keep bank accounts that most people only dream of and am more than happy to take you to my banks to show you account balances that I guarantee will stun you.
    I own several businesses and choose to remain anonymous because my advocacy can negatively affect my businesses. I have done too much for registrants to list in a brief post. If you would like to see any of the above, you are free to contact me at leonb7056@gmail.com

  8. Detroit

    Brendan:
    If you move to Michigan you will be required to register. The case involving HYTA is People v Temelkoski in the Michigan Supreme Court. The reason that registrants aren’t currently required to register in Michigan is that a federal judge placed Michigan’s registry on hold in February. This has to do with covid, not any court case. It’s unknown at this time how long this court order will remain in effect.
    I own several houses and do rent to people on the registry. I am hoping to house some out of state registrants. Michigan treats out of state registrants differently from in state registrants. I believe this is unconstitutional. There is a case out of Indiana that supports my argument (Hope v IDOC). However, that case is on appeal to the 7th Circuit. No matter how the 7th Circuit decides that case, it won’t be binding on Michigan because Michigan is in the 6th Circuit. It’s a unique argument so the 6th Circuit will most likely follow the 7th so the 7th’s ultimate decision will have to be taken into consideration when we develop our case. Our ultimate goal is to get a decision similar to Hope.

  9. Detroit

    BM:
    You are incorrect. The 6th Circuit Court has already ruled that Michigan’s registry is punishment. There is no need to relitigate this issue, it is already settled.

    Disgusted in Michigan:
    This isn’t in Cleland’s order. The 6th Circuit Court ruled that the registry is punishment so they can’t increase your registration period after your offense was committed.

    Everyone needs to settle down and wait for Does II to become final.

    • BM@ Detroit

      Detroit, there is no disrespect here and I’m calm. What the 6th Circuit said is that Michigan’s registry is punishment. I’m not at all disagreeing with that. What I believe the 6th Circuit stated was that the 2006 / 2011 Amendments were punishment and cannot be applied retroactively. SCOTUS Smith v Doe stated that to determine punishment there are factors, Mendoza, and as you are aware the 6th Circuit went through them in their assessment of punishment “particularly where they can live, work”. Those no longer exist. A new lawsuit will need to be filed and the new law deemed punishment by the “clearest proof” based on those factors since all laws are presumed constitutional until challenged. I do agree that the 6th stated it is punishment but that law and those requirements under the new law will change. I hope I’m wrong and I welcome the constructive conversation. I think a few of us are just skeptical of your assessment.

  10. Detroit

    BM:
    Think of what you just stated. The 2011 amendments cannot be retroactively applied. In 2011, Michigan bumped up tier III registrants from 25 years to life. This cannot be applied retroactively.

  11. Fed up in BC

    So the law that was signed yesterday stating that if you have a set aside or expungement order from a court only applies to who? I have a set aside order granted on 3/12/2012, does this mean I’ll be coming off the registry?

  12. Detroit

    Fed up in BC:
    You read the bill correctly. Once this law goes into effect, MSP has 7 days to remove you from the registry. Send them a copy of your set aside order via certified mail and tell them that you should be removed due to the new legislation.

    • Fed up in BC

      Seeing as MSP already have my set aside on file, should I still send them a me ?

  13. Detroit

    Fed up in BC:
    I would at least send them a certified letter explaining that you must be removed due to the new law. If they don’t remove you contact an attorney and see if you have grounds for monetary damages.

  14. Brandon

    What’s the next step for Michigan registrants in this game of we’ll continue to thumb our nose at you? Time to support the lawmakers who voted against the bill and make grounds that way. Truly disappointed in the Governor, but not surprised she signed the bill.

  15. Detroit

    Fed up in BC:
    To see how having an attorney makes a difference, read the June 7, 2018 article by Todd Spangler in the Detroit Free Press. He explains how registrants with bad cases get off of the registry while registrants with less serious and lower tiers stay on because the worst sex offender hired an attorney and was removed.
    The article is available on this website tagged “Michigan”.

    • Fed up in BC

      In my case when I got my set aside the prosecutor told the judge that I would still have to register given the law change in 2011, the prosecutor was actually trying to re try the case at the set aside hearing and got reprimanded by the judge for it. I’ve had a clean record since 2001 gone through all the BS that the local cops and MSP have tried going for , going as far as arresting me for living at my house that I was grandfathered under the law to live at and the court officer for the judge even said that when he was with the local PD he was the one that informed me that I was good to live there being that I had been in residence since 2003, that case got dismissed.

    • Warpath

      I am a Michigan resident. I can afford an attorney. I was arrested in late 2011 and was convicted in 2012 for CP. It is my understanding that there is no way off of the registry, no way to get a set aside, no way to expunge or so says my attorney. If there is a pathway to get off this hit list I would love to hear it. I would put my retirement up as collateral just to get off of it. I am an old man. The parts of me that society supposedly fears do not even work anymore due to old age. Hopefully that isn’t too much information.

      Any information on getting off the registry would be greatly appreciated

  16. Warpath

    Another grave concern…..as I get older my health will decline. My understanding is most nursing homes and assisted living centers will not allow registrants in. Anyone know that to be true? Bunch of old non-functioning And nonsexual geezers are somehow a sexual threat? This is inhumane

    • 16 block

      or path… I had heard this in the past but I don’t know if there is actually something to it or if it is just a rumor. I would imagine that if it’s a state or city run facility they wouldn’t be able to discriminate. Also, I heard that if you are on the registry for life you can’t get into some apartment complexes.

  17. Detroit

    Warpath:
    There currently is no expungement for offenders whose offense date is after 1997, except some CSC 4’s which even those no longer can be expunged (I don’t recall the year Michigan changed that law). If your offense date preceded July 1, 2011, there is a possibility that you may be covered under Does.
    What county are you in? After this covid is over we will be starting meetings. I have 5 or 6 people seriously interested in meetings and about a dozen or so more I question how serious they are. I am hoping to get at least 10 people at the first meeting. If I get a decent turnout, I will be bringing an attorney to the meetings once or twice a year to answer general questions. I am in my 60’s, so don’t want to do anything until covid is past.
    There are other things in the works, so I wouldn’t give up hope of being off of the registry. If you want to participate in what I have going on, you can reach me at: leonb7056@gmail.com.

  18. Detroit

    Dr.:
    If your case is pre 1995 and you have no other convictions, you should be off of the registry after the dust settles in the current litigation.
    Most attorneys will tell you that you have to prove damages in order to file a claim for monetary damages. My argument is that the 6th Circuit Court ruled that the registry is punishment and by Michigan extending your registry term is that you are being unconstitutionally “punished” if you were eligible to be removed by one of these court decisions. It’s like if you were sentenced to 10 years in prison and you are supposed to be released at the end of the 10 years and the state keeps you in prison for 11 years. You can’t sue for the first 10 years, but you can sue for that extra year that they kept you past your outdate.
    I honestly believe that there is enough money in any such litigation that a good section 1983 lawyer would be willing to take on the challenge of such a lawsuit. I would like to see it as a class action. It is undeniable that the Does II litigation has the potential to remove well over 10,000 people from the registry. A large monetary judgement in Michigan would put all of the other states on notice and they wouldn’t be dragging their feet after any further court order like Michigan has.

  19. SRaisingThreeKids

    I am on MI registry. I am divorced, raising three kids on my own (imagine what she did if she lost custody to a registered sex offender). My conviction was in 2012, and was sentenced 0 jail time. I am curious what other registrants would find an ideal and healthy balance to this debacle. I know it’s easy to say let’s get rid of the registry altogether, but the public would never so easily jump on that bus. So what would we propose that alleviates us from bad laws, but also helps the public to feel safer?

    • JohnDoeUtah

      I’m assuming you had to prove to the court that you are not a danger. I know I did. If that’s the case, I’d use that as the basis to sue to get off the registry. You already have a ruling in your favor, so the State would not have grounds to cite public safety.

      • SRaisingThreeKids

        I was convicted the summer before my youngest was born, and in the plea deal I bargained to have my own children be exceptions to the no-contact-with-minors rule that everybody on probation or parole deals with. My ‘victim’ was not related to me and the judge seemed it a fair exception, considering the impact to my children had I not been allowed contact with them.

        I had never considered using my divorce results as proof that I am not a danger. I imagine the judge would find some way to twist it and say that my lack of danger is limited to my children, and that to other minors, I am still a danger. I’ll keep that in mind. My next big legal battle is to regain my gun rights. If I can overcome that obstacle, I feel I would be on the right track towards what you explained.

        My youngest is 8, so I have a decade of child raising left in me. I am looking into moving out of state at that time to pursue my life long dream of Off-Grid / Homesteading / Prepping / Tiny-House-Living / Permaculture lifestyle. Having spent these last 8 years on the registry, I’ve come to accept my fate as a modern day leper and want to take it to the next logical step. I’ve convinced a good friend of mine to seriously consider joining me.

        • JohnDoeUtah

          After my release my victim was of the age-of-consent, 13 months confinement. She found me on the registry and came to my new apartment to introduce me to our son after about two months. I was released unconditionally, no probation, no parole. Once the State found out we were having contact, about six months, DCFS filed in Court for a No-Contact Order, then proceeded by a Criminal Protective Order.

          I completed a psychosexual evaluation with a State approved evaluator rebutting the presumption of dangerousness, “not a pedophile or violent person…a minimal risk of re-offense.” The State objected to its entry as evidence, but the judge (juvenile court) allowed it. However, instead of lifting the No-Contact Order she ordered me to attend treatment specific to the concerns of the evaluator. After ~16 weeks of individual treatment sessions, the evaluator submitted another finding of “minimal risk of re-offense.” Again, against the State’s objections, the judge allowed it (but now in district court, new judge) and vacated the no-contact orders. The Criminal Protective Order was dismissed and expunged. The whole process took about 3 years. My son is now nearly 16.

          While I never used that finding to challenge the registry (military offense), I have been off the registry in my state for 4 years. If they ever attempted to put me back on, this plus the last 15 years in the community would be used to fight them on their so called public-safety argument. The fact I already beat them would be grounds for an offensive collateral estoppel to even prevent them from trying to re-litigate the issue.

  20. Detroit

    SRaisingThreeKids:
    In Michigan, you can possess a firearm after you are off paper for 3 years. Michigan is the only state that I know of where your firearm rights are automatically restored after a felony conviction. In most states, you are permanently barred from possessing a firearm. A few states have a process similar to a petition to apply to restore your rights. Your conviction needs to be expunged to regain your federal right to possess a firearm. This won’t happen in a CSC case.
    Michigan is at the forefront of finding these laws unconstitutional. No state has come close to the decisions in Does I and II in scope in finding these various aspects of the registry unconstitutional and there is other litigation in the works in Michigan. You will most likely be removed from the registry the quickest if you remain in Michigan.

  21. Detroit

    The statute that allows you to possess a firearm after 3 years in Michigan is M.C.L. 750.224f. You should read the statute.

    • 16 block

      The way I read the law, if you have any type of felony the only thing you can do is apply for a firearms license after a given period of time and this license is solely limited to muzzleloaders or black powder guns. Nothing nothing nothing there takes a shell. So, if you want something for Home Protection you can have a blunder bust or muzzleloader or a black powder gun or a crossbow or a big ass dog… But that’s about it. I guess I could see it if perhaps the felony was committed using a firearm but again for them they throw the blanket over everyone is totally ridiculous. I’ve checked into what the rules are for so your wife owning a gun. She’s allowed but it Hass to be in a gun safe that is operated by fingerprint or something that you can’t access in anyway. I’ve talked to a couple gun shops and they even go so far as to say it is unlawful for you to be inside of a gun shop for any reason.. I was told that laws may differ depending on the state but is a federal law that says felons are not allowed do use on our possess a firearm in anyway.

    • Fed up

      Once again detroit, you are so quick to give legal advice, and you do it with such arrogant snark. Settle down! You need to actually cite where you get your info.
      The question was pertaining to automatic firearm rights restoration after a 3 year period once all probation, parole, fines, and fees are completed and csc 2nd; Is it a specified offense? This would make it a specified offense:
      “If an element of the felony is use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against the person or property of another, or that by its nature involves a substantial risk that physical force against the person or property of another may be used in the course of committing the offense.”

      Can you say with certainty that a csc that involved touching does not fit the definition of physical force? If you can, cite case law…if not keep your opinions to yourself before you get people in trouble.

  22. Detroit

    Bobby S.:
    The original statute contained basically the firearm and explosives as a specified offense. They later added burglary and controlled substance offenses. There are no registry offenses listed specifically as specified offenses. The only provision they can apply to any registerable offense is the use of force provision which is confusing and should be either rewritten or stricken from the statute. The use of force provision contains 2 important elements, that the underlying crime must be a felony (which rules out all CSC 4s) and that the use of force be an element of the offense. So forcible rape would fall under the 5 year provision and you would have to petition for the restoration of your firearm rights.
    The use of force provision is relevant in perhaps 5% of all registerable offenses so the bulk of registerable offenses fall under the 3 year firearm rights provision. No CP cases implicate this provision and you have to remember that statutory rape crimes don’t contain force as an element of the offense.
    It doesn’t matter what was alleged in the complaint. Use of force may have been alleged in the complaint but it doesn’t apply if it’s not an element of the offense that you were convicted of.

  23. Detroit

    16 block:
    You are correct in that it is quite difficult for felons to possess a firearm under federal law. There are very few avenues under federal law, usually by expungment or a pardon (which I don’t believe covers much more than 1% of all felons), which allow felons to posses a firearm.
    Under Michigan law, black powder rifles and muzzle loaders are firearms but air guns are not. Due to a quirk in the law, most felons can possess a firearm after 3 years but not a BB gun. There is a way for felons with a specified offense to petition to have their firearm rights restored after 5 years but not their right to own a BB gun.
    There are a couple of Michigan Court of Appeals decisions that say that you cannot be convicted of armed robbery if you use an air gun in the robbery.

    • Disgusted in Michigan

      @Detroit…The ATF does not consider black powder muzzleloader long guns, cap and ball black powder pistols or airguns to be firearms. Michigan does not consider air guns to be firearm either, but black powder muzzleloader long guns and cap and ball black powder pistols are firearms. Therefore, it would be legal under Michigan law and federal law for possession of black powder muzzleloader long guns and cap and ball black powder pistols once firearm rights are restored. I own several BB guns and a cap and ball black powder pistol, which is perfectly legal for me.

  24. Detroit

    Fed up:
    I can say with certainty that touching is not force.

  25. Detroit

    16 Block:
    You may be right about how someone in your household possesses a firearm. Possession isn’t just actual but can also be constructive. If you have the knowledge of the firearm’s existence and access to it, there is an argument that this is constructive possession.

  26. Detroit

    Bobby S:
    When we post a comment, we try to keep it brief. I was making a comment that in Michigan he can possess a firearm 3 years after he is off parole. In a brief comment it is to difficult to get into specified and unspecified offenses and were I to go into detail of the offenses and he had to pay his fines, etc., the point of the post would have been lost in the verbage. That’s why I referred to the M.C.L. I posted the M.C.L. as an afterthought to my previous post. Fed up took this afterthought to be a reply to your post because it is posted after your post when we both had posts waiting for moderation. My answer to your question is addressed to you in the following post.

  27. Scooter

    not to be rude but guns are the least of my worries I can care less my main focus is this registry how its gonna affect us with 3 days to register now and all the other bs the state is pulling I know certain counties are making you register threw the pandemic and if you fail to register there locking you up and i wanna to know is this unlawful bill is gonna go back to court since nothing was changed also all 44000 pluss registrant dont know about this web site or know whats going on with these laws were I had to dig and find these sites to learn what’s going on myself wish they would send letters out to registrant so they can be more involved this is my opinion I just don’t think the state is gonna let us go registry was design for 3 purposes to make money and throw you back in prison or publicly humiliate you for the rest of your life

    • 16 block

      Scooter… I was thinking about this new three day thing the other day. So does that mean we have three days to report a change or three days to do the address verification every three months?

      • Scooter

        I am assuming 3 days to verify when its your month

        • Josh

          @ Scooter
          I remember when it changed from the first 2 weeks of the month to the whole month being open….Law enforcement are going to just LOVE having thousands of registrants milling around each cop shop across the state the first 3 days of every month IF that is the case with 5679…..what a shit show of a state we live in….

      • Disgusted in Michigan

        @16 Block…the 3 days is to report any changes in your status, like changing your residence, registering a new vehicle, changing jobs, etc. Its not 3 days to verify. You still have the entire month for that.

        • 16 block

          Disgusted in Michigan… Thanks for the clarification. I couldn’t figure out why it started out as a 15 day reporting. And then changed to the whole month and then back to three days? Didn’t make any sense but dealing with a long bakers doesn’t make any sense either. Another thing that’s been on my mind is that pre-2011‘s don’t have to do that address verification with the state police. I called again this morning and again that’s what they told me and they said that everything is on hold. Now if this was because of the covered post 2011‘s wouldn’t have to report either I would think. So is this part of is this part of the judges order because of Covid or because of the ex post facto?

    • Will Allen (Registration Liberation Army guerrilla)

      I hear you. I never even thought about guns until I was put on the Hit List and my family became endangered. Now days, I want a lot a guns around. If some Registry Supporter/Terrorist comes onto my property to harm my family, I want them killed. I think there are a lot of ways to have a secure home. Personally, I like the idea of living on a large compound with plenty of people who are legally allowed to have and use guns, and are paid to protect the property. Personal preference.

      Yeah, the “3 days” BS is a bunch of nonsense. That is big government idiots for you. It could easily be 2 weeks and not affect public safety in even the most trivial, insignificant of ways. I live in a state where everything must be reported within 3 days. I’ve been dealing with the stupidity for decades. If I want to buy a vehicle on a Friday afternoon, then I have to make sure I have some business hours free on the following Monday so that I can go visit the criminal regime. Then after that I have to spend a lot more time, above and beyond the usual, retaliating more for having to do that. Takes a couple of days. It’s workable, but it’s just big government dumbness. If I was going to do something illegal with a vehicle, I’d never use one that was Registered to me anyway. Just dumb. Like the Hit Lists in general.

      Legitimate governments don’t have Hit Lists. Legitimate law enforcement agencies have real work to do and don’t have time to mess with Hit Lists.

      Defund, defund, defund. All these criminal regimes should 1/100th of their size. Look at what a wasteful f’ing mess they are! Same with their law enforcement criminals. Take all their resources that you can. Make sure the Hit Lists are worthless and that there are CONSTANT, daily negative consequences to society.

      As long as Hit Lists exist there must be war.

      • SRaisingThreeKids

        I completely understand your frustrations towards the registry and how it can jeopardize the lives of our loved ones. However, a blatant call for war not only makes our stance less credible, it could possibly make you a target.

        Since my crime and the subsequent punishments, I have also been driven towards the libertarian mindset regarding gun rights and practicing said rights. I know I have a good case to to be rewarded my rights again. My crime didn’t involve force or violence, it is my only crime; not even a traffic ticket before or since, a family court judge has rewarded me full custody of my three kids post divorce, I am gainfully employed and own my home. I understand that not all registrants have the same fortune as I do. The best thing I can do is follow the letter of the law, and represent us well by setting a good example (that will go ignored by the populous).

        I urge you to not incite violence towards LEO’s or members of public or even the government. Imagine how the public would view sex offenders even worse if they were made aware of a group of sex offenders that were trying to ‘wage war’ against the government and/or police. We are already hated enough. We will never win unless we gain some respect first. Imagine how the Nazis portrayed the Jews, and how easily it was to convince the German people to turn a blind eye when the Jews were rounded up and put in the ghettos, and then the camps. You cannot fight the propaganda machine.

        Peace, brother.

        • Will Allen

          I hear you. But it is not a “call for war”. In my case, the war has already happened. I’ve been on the Hit Lists for decades. They were nothing when I was first listed and it was only supposed to be for a relatively short period of time. I think you can guess how that turned out. So, I don’t give a f*ck what the criminal regimes say is legitimate or not, or how they lie and lie about how it is moral and for public safety and protecting children. They are lying sacks of shit. So there had to be consequences. They don’t get any say in it. Their opinions are no longer of any concern to me.

          Long ago I retaliated to an extent that even if a criminal regime sent one of their law enforcement criminals (LECs) into my home in the next 5 minutes and shot me in the head, they have already lost this war. They lost long, long ago. Ever since, they’ve only been losing and adding casualties.

          And for what? Not public safety, that’s for damn sure. It’s just so they can get themselves off with a fake panacea.

          Today, they can’t justify having me listed on a Hit List. They don’t have the gang bangers downtown who commit crimes every year listed. I don’t care what their excuses are. I don’t care that they got themselves into this mess and aren’t smart enough to get out. It’s just too bad. I urge all PFRs to make sure you win your personal war. Live a better life than any Registry Supporter/Terrorist and make them pay.

          I also really don’t give a damn what “the public” thinks either. I was forced to insulate my family from their harassment, so today, they’ll have a very, very difficult time touching me. I’ve known for a very long time that most of them are wastes of oxygen. The past couple of years and particularly this past year have just really shown, yet a-f’ing-gain, exactly what kind of P.O.S. most people living in America are. Look at them. This country has devolved rapidly. The Hit Lists are a wonderful part of that.

          I do think the propaganda machine can be fought. It has to be fought with more and better propaganda. The criminal regimes are only marginally interested in propping up their Hit Lists. There ought to be millions of people who are extremely interested in running counter-propaganda all the time. But everyone wants to be nice. And ask the criminals to pay attention to facts and reality. Ask them to be moral. That is only going to get you so far. Because they are scum. It is not as extreme, but it is like a Jewish person asking Hitler to be nice to them.

          So I can’t worry what happens to LECs or big government criminals. Life is tough. I’m going to continue to be a good person, live a better life than them, and ensure the Hit Lists are worthless and worse. As long as you don’t support the Hit Lists, I hope you take your best path as well, whatever it is, and have a great, peaceful life.

        • SRaisingThreeKids

          One of my wishes is to have the registry flooded with so many men and women that the public becomes numb to it. I also want a registry for non-sexual child abusers, as well as animal abusers. Add in assault, stalking, and even some drug abuse registries, and then the common folk will start to realize just how bad the registries are in nature.

        • Will Allen

          @SRaisingThreeKids:

          If the Hit Lists are to continue to exist and have any hope of ever being even close to legitimate, then there are 100s of other Hit Lists that must be created immediately. It is beyond shocking that we list people for looking at pictures and not for shooting their next door neighbors with a gun!! Or how about a person who broke into their neighbors’ homes in the middle of the night? Perhaps they had to beat the families while they were in there. Perhaps left them permanently disabled? Or drunk drivers who have murdered people? The list is practically endless. It will probably be easiest for us to just have one Hit List and have all the different kinds of crimes listed on it.

          I mean, why don’t we just go full-on “social score” (like China does/may have)?? If people “have a right” to know about me, then I have a right to know about them. Let’s make it easy and make every person who lives in America keep their address and other information recorded with big government. I should be able to look up any neighbor that lives near me and get a full dossier on the person. It absolutely MUST include a list of all of their life’s transgressions. I definitely want to see who has beaten their spouses or other people. I also want to see people who have defrauded people. They are a danger to my family.

          I envision a single web site for all of America. I should be able to pull up a map of anywhere that looks just Google’s or the government GIS maps and shows each individual home or other building. I should be able to click on any home and see everyone who lives there. Everyone would be obligated to Register and list a home address. I would be able to pull up each individual’s dossier, see pictures, their transgressions, where they’ve lived, and the rest. Until what age should we keep the dossiers of minors blocked? 16? Up until the age of driving? Sounds about right.

          In the meantime, I have my own Hit List for people who think Hit Lists are acceptable. I need to get that online. I will be legally affecting the lives of those people. I don’t have to care about them or their families. They are harassing terrorists who cannot mind their own business or leave other families alone.

  28. Fed up in BC

    The 3 days is to report any changes, ie address, employment whatever and it is 3 business days. I don’t think they changed anything in regards to the verification itself.

  29. Needing hope

    With a 2016 conviction, this new law provides me relief as I can attend my youngest school functions now, well in March but with her graduating in May I have missed everything meaningful at this point. It probably means a job or 2 someday in my life might be available in the old safety zone or the off chance a rental will accept me. The law also makes my reporting requirements stricter unless by some stroke of luck the MSP sets up a way to do reporting online. The HYTA changes are exactly what a young person needs to change their life for the best and this will have a huge impact in their families. Unfortunately a set aside and HYTA is not an option for me.

    Do the pending Does cases have any impact on me? Looking for some hope here

  30. Patience in Michigan

    So I was convicted of CSC 4th degree in 2001, completed hyta, had record “expunged”… still had to register for the last 20 years. I know this bill isn’t what everyone hoped for, it does finally give me some hope.. so I can’t help but be excited for it. That being said, does anyone have any idea when hyta offenders will be removed? I check everyday, and am disappointed everyday to see my name still on there. I feel like I can almost start living like a normal person again.

  31. Same boat

    To Patience in Michigan. Michigan ACLU says March 24th, and we should get a letter from MSP by then

  32. Quietman

    @Same boat… you have stated that the Michigan ACLU says March 24th…what are you talking about? I have not heard anything about the 24th of March as related the Michigan SORA. Please explain what you mean and the source of your information. Thank you. Peace be with you all.

    • Josh

      @Quiet…
      When the governor signed 5679 into law it goes into effect on March 24 of this year.

  33. Quietman

    @Josh…thank you Josh for the information. I don’t believe we will receive “the letter” from the MSP, because that comes after Judge Cleland lifts his temporary injunction against the State, after he declares that the “covid-19 emergency” is over, in relation to our class action suit. And the judge still has to make his determination as to whether the State has fulfilled his requirements as to the constitutionality of the new State SORA law. Peace be with all of you.

    • BM@Quietman

      BM@Quietman – the letter needs to come from MSP, not Judge Cleland. If you read his order it states the injunction will be lifted once there is no more “emergency” AND there are letters sent out stating what the obligations are going forward. The letters have been a contentious part of the ACLU’s motions with the state as well.

      Josh was correct.

  34. Quietman

    When I spoke of Judge Cleland making his determination as to the constitutionality of the new State SORA law, I mean, if, in his mind, HB 5679 has met all the constitutional issues that he told the State to remedy through legislation. We will see. If my legal logic needs correcting, please feel free to do so. I try to be open to learning. Peace be with all of you.

  35. Quietman

    @BM…thank you for clarifying. Peace be with all of you.

  36. Bobby S.

    @everyone. Just wondering if anyone else received a email from Tim at the Michigan ACLU, and what he had to say about what is going on so far. I would like to get your thoughts on what he told us all. Personally it sounds like more of the same, just more runaround. HB 5679, goes in effect March 24 , but I don’t think it should apply to those of us, that are pre- 2006 and 2011. The courts have spoken, the Michigan Legislature and Whitmer meds to be held accountable for their actions concerning this unconstitutional Bill.

  37. Bobby S.

    Here is something in regards to the Paul Betts case.

    http://publicdocs.courts.mi.gov/SCT/PUBLIC/ORDERS/148981_87_01.pdf

    • 16 block

      Bobby S… I got the letter from Tim too. I guess it kind of spells out what was changed and what do you still want to see changed, stuff they’re not happy with or neither a week for that matter. I guess on the good side is they’re not giving up and we shouldn’t either and also on the good side is that the pre-2011 don’t have to go do the very address verification and it comes down from the judge. I don’t think it has anything to do with a covered it strictly because of the lawsuit and that’s a good thing. Probably more than anything else I’m just hoping that if there is an amendment or amendments to the new Soora the judge will step in. My fingers are crossed and I got another good time

    • Dr.

      Thanks Bobby, I missed that.
      What freedoms will pre 1995s get back after March 24th?

      • Josh

        @Dr
        Essentially if things remain as they are with 5679 and the judge doesn’t intervene or make a final ruling in favor of pre-2011 registrants then there is NO freedom with this new “fix”. Unless you count being able to attend events at your kid’s school, not being labeled by tier on the public SOR page, or a few other minor things. You will still be a registered former sex offender for whatever time you were assigned which for all of the former Tier 3s is LIFE…..

      • Bobby S.

        @Dr., That is a good question, probably not much from what I can piece together, I also am pre- 95 my conviction was 6-19-1992 way before a registry ever existed. So we just have to wait and see what the ACLU’s next move is, or hopefully Cleland steps in and does something before HB 5679 becomes law on 3-24-21

  38. Dr.

    So, ex post facto and due process have no footing in the constitution as far as the legislature’s judiciary committee is concerned.

    Does this hb 5679 have to get in front of judge Cleland before the state police send letters?

    • Josh

      @Dr…..
      I personally don’t know what will or what needs to happen before March 24th. I don’t know that anything will happen before the emergency injunction is lifted? I don’t know if the ACLU can or will seek relief BEFORE the law goes into effect? The email from the aclu that many of us received the other night said that they were taking advantage of the injunction against sora enforcement to come up with the best strategy possible. As of two days ago there was nothing scheduled on the docket for a meeting between the court, state, & ACLU. If anybody has heard different I’d be glad to hear about it….I think something will probably happen between now & the 24th but your guess is as good as anybody’s

  39. Dr.

    Thanks josh,

    Interim Order Summary April 6, 2020. The Court previously ordered that SORA is invalid for pre-2011 registrants

    I copied that off from Aclu Michigan sora, web page and I just wondered

    5-10-93……30 days county, 4 yrs probation, no contact sense other than sora

  40. Dr.

    Thanks Bobby,
    Any idea how many pre-95 people are affected ?

  41. BRANDON

    THIS WILL get somewhere! I’LL keep you posted!

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