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MI: Lawsuit against state’s Sex Offense Registry Act enters final judgment

Source: wnem.com 6/21/21

A federal judge has granted a motion for litigation about the state’s sex offense act to enter final judgment.

Parts of Michigan’s Sex Offense Registration Act (SORA) were ruled unconstitutional by U.S. District Court Judge Robert Cleland on Feb. 14, 2020. The litigation has been ongoing for nine years.

Due to the coronavirus pandemic, the court delayed the final judgment in April 2020.

The court held a retroactive punishment of the 2011 amendments to SORA can not be served. Several other SORA provisions were found unconstitutional for people who were convicted before the 2011 amendment was enacted.

The Michigan Legislature passed Public Act 295 on Dec. 31, 2020, also known as “new SORA,” which addresses constitutional issues the court found in the registry. This act went into effect on March 24.

The court determined possible future prosecution for violations of the old SORA statute requires the entry of a final judgment, even though the judgment will not affect the enforcement of the new SORA statute enacted in March 2021.

The court concluded that the new version of SORA applies only to registrants’ conduct on or after March 24.

While plaintiffs of the litigation argue new SORA also has unconstitutional provisions and makes the law more unclear, challenges to the new version will need to be addressed in a separate lawsuit.

Plaintiffs must submit a joint, proposed form of judgment by July 12.

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“Consequently, the court concludes that the new version of SORA applies only to registrants’ conduct on or after March 24, 2021.”

WOW! Does this mean that anyone whose offense in Michigan occurred prior to 3/24/2021 does not have to register anymore???

No, that’s not what it means. Last year when the Judge entered the injunction saying we don’t have to register during covid, the legislature began drafting the new law. There were changes made that if applied to us during the stay home order, it would have caused us all to be in violation of the new law. The judge said the new law takes affect on March 24, 2021 in order to protect us from prosecution for not registering. It doesn’t mean we don’t have to register if we were convicted prior to March 24, 2021, it means the new law is not made retroactive to cover the months during the emergency stay home orders. Had the Judge ruled in favor of the State, technically we all could have been charged with violating the new SORA law even though the injunction was in place.

No, i interpret this as during the pandemic sora did not apply, but it began to apply after march 24, 2021 to all people

@Me, I interpret it the same way I think. Essentially these are the points I got from it. Not saying I’m right

1. Nobody can be punished for violation under old SORA if it wasn’t already prosecuted because old SORA is unconstitutional. This includes violations that may have occurred but not been discovered.

2. Only violations under new SORA after it’s implementation can be prosecuted.

3. New SORA may have similar claims made against it but those claims require new lawsuits be filed

4. The state is ordered to disclose non public information about those registered under old SORA to the class council.

I’d have to say yes after watching channel 5 WNEN

I am a reasonably intelligent person. In the interest of staying out of prison, I tend to abide by the rules. These idiots have made it so complex that a reasonably intelligent person can not possibly understand what to do and what not to do. It has to be by design. They want every plausible means of a prosecutor to be able to prosecute us. Gray area, unclear, open to interpretation type laws serve no other purpose. This snails pace of changing these rules is stressful

So now I guess there will have to be another lawsuit because even though the Court ruled the retroactive application of lifetime registration to be a violation of the ex post facto clause, Michigan did NOTHING to change it.
This entire lawsuit was nothing but a joke. I don’t give a damn about the school safety zones, telephones, email addresses, internet identifiers. My beef was that there was NO registry when I was convicted, but I was placed on it anyway for 25 years, then the 2011 change in the law retroactively punished me by forcing me to register for LIFE!!!
We are all going to die before we see this change.

Well yes, Except the next challenge the state’s Congress will not be given the presumption of non punitive intent. The State of Michigan has a track record of violating the prohibition upon Congressional use of ex post language as applied to the sub group subsequent to conviction. The founders must have known how corrupted they ( the mostly ignorant majority) can get through the use of propaganda. All that has really happened is the D&Rs have been caught with their fingers in the pie.

I trust my neighbors to the north will file a new claim soon questioning the meaning of the ruling in practical terms concerning individuals convicted in different time periods. As it stands state’s agents will be responsible for interpreting the final order all on their own and individual offenders will not have council present.

And what did he say if they didn’t bring it into compliance?
If my memory serves me ,,,,,,,,
o People whose offenses occurred before April 12, 2011, cannot be subjected to the 2011 amendments, ( which retroactively extended many individuals’ registration terms to life,) classified registrants by tiers, and imposed extensive reporting requirements.

So Congress has NOT done what was ordered .
Apparently congress cannot separate the unconstitutional parts of sora from sora? Just as the aclu pointed out so long ago,,,,,

What happens when you don’t comply with a judge’s order?

Last edited 1 month ago by Dr.

Since new litigation will be needed for the New SORA, hopefully an immediate injunction can be issued on the entire new SORA pending the outcome.

Shut. It. Down.

And you know what ticks me off, throughout the Does v. Snyder suit, we were constantly told “Do not start your own lawsuit to get off the registry. It will just slow us down. This lawsuit will cover everybody”. I have a mind to chew out the person working with ACLU who kept pushing that message.

Because rulings could clash, and no matter what happened, you’d be bound by it if your own lawsuit ruled against you. You’d be sh*t out of luck.

Don’t panic just yet, the ruling isn’t final yet. Cleland will rule in our favor. I know how this judge thinks and how he views things. he’s very tied to the constitution, and doesn’t sway from it much if at all. I faced him 3 times as a plaintiff, won and he ruled in my favor against an insurance company that refused to pay accident claim because I was an offender. They had to pay all claims with 50% interest !! lol.
Don’t under estimate Cleland, he doesn’t like the life time registry for one. and does not agree to keep punishing people over and over. He’s fair, one that also, believe it or not, believes in second chances. But he also believes if you do the crime you do the time, within reason.

Keep in mind the exact wording of the New Sora, no where does it clarify it being retro active, no where does it claim recapture. According to a prosecutor I sat down with and had a long conversation with. The New Sora is confusing alot of agencies and MSP. Many Sherriff departments have no clue how to address it or comply with it. ( that came from prosecutor)

If Cleland rules it as final and unconstitutional, Yes, many of the pre 2011 will come off. And is what many agencies are waiting upon, clelands final judgement. And many agencies are presuming and planning that it will take many off. That’s the input I have gotten. Which by the way will not be retro active into new Sora.

The talk about New Law suit on new sora is to address all OTHER issues, such as the tier level, life time registration, and paths off registry.
What will really help the new law suit is South Carolina Supreme court just recently made final judgement that life time registry is unconstitutional. So that will end there. Other states are following suit to be heard as this sets the foundation. Michigan will be next if cleland has his way.

Mr. Ed… In a previous post you mentioned meeting with a prosecutor so that you could have your gun rights restored. Are you talking black powder? Also, I read posts on here daily and I can’t honestly say I recall seeing you on here before but I may be mistaken. Is Mr. Ed your only user name?

Haven’t been on Here in a while, but yea had another name, unfortunately I can’t remember what I used or password, Site couldn’t find my user name, so I said to heck with it and created a new one. Truth be told, I been on it quite a bit in past.
As for gun restoration, no not black powder, regular. Prosecutor said I am eligible under Michigan law. Federal law however is a different story. Once a felon always a felon and is no to guns. But in Michigan if enough time has passed you can apply for your gun rights back. I have several, I put after I was convicted in wife’s name. It becomes a federal offense if your a felon and commit a crime after being given state rights back to say hunt deer. Don’t take my word for it, read the Michigan laws, changed not long ago under Snyder.
Ask a prosecutor about it.

Since when does posting here require a password? [Moderators comment: optional]

Since I couldn’t get my User name to take, may of not been the right one, I registered again. Doing so requires a one time password to get in. Once email was verified, no you don’t need password again after that.

Ok, thanks for explaining.

Mr Ed, you are wrong about getting gun permit back in Michigan. Not only did I apply but my attorney argued it with a Michigan federal judge. NO GUN. It’s federal, state crime, no one will sell you a gun.

David, Mr. Ed is correct. There have been changes in Michigan’s gun laws, and while it is very difficult to have your 2nd Amendment rights restored, it is not impossible. Each individual is scrutinized and cases are handled individually with a lot of factors taken into consideration. Factors such as how much time has passed since conviction, the circumstances surrounding the conviction, whether or not it was a non specified felony, what the individual has done since completing his sentence, if he has done anything outstanding for the community, etc. One important thing to understand is that any restoration granted applies only to your eligibility under Michigan law. In other words, don’t cross state lines with the gun or go on federal property.

Mr. Ed:
I find your comment quite interesting especially since you have been before him on 3 occasions.
I got involved in the innocence movement several years ago and became involved in the Frederick Freeman case that he prosecuted. He did some pretty underhanded things in that case. Even though I’m not 100% convinced in Freeman’s innocence, I feel the case was weak and never should have been prosecuted.
You paint him as a conservative republican in the same mold as Richard Matsch who decided Millard v Rankin. Even though I am not a republican, I have great respect for judges like Richard Matsch who hold true to the principles of the Constitution.
I’ve never liked Cleland because of what I read in the Freeman case. However, if he is more like Matsch that certainly could change my perspective.

Yes he is republican, But, he is very true to the constitution. I won my cases against Insurance company auto claim after they kept making damn sure everyone knew I had a sexual offense conviction and didn’t deserve to have insurance company pay the claim. Judge Cleland disagreed and stated I’m a paying customer and pay my insurance premiums just like everyone else, and the treatment and label doesn’t belong here
he said, and that it shouldn’t even be an issue. I got my claim with 50 % interest.
Cleland is fair, and he holds fast to the constitution, he doesn’t sway from that. He also follows changes in society, and facts. He won’t buy hear say. He’s a show me the proof, show me the facts type of guy.
You don’t do that, then it’s a done deal as far as he’s concerned. You don’t want to stretch his patience, because he will snap at you.
!0 years ago if this case of does was being finalized, he’d have sided with the state. But as I mentioned, he follows changes, by changes I mean the number of people that used to look up registry
in Michigan alone was 500-600 daily, sometimes more. Now it’s like 20-30 a week. What’s that tell ya?? People don’t give a rats ass about the registry and have better things to do than look up people. Cleland is aware of this, and so should ACLU.

How can it be legal for the Michigan’s legislature to pass laws based on something being in litigation? Sounds like they act like superheroes; while they really are power hungry tripping fools.

They enacted the new law because the judge ORDERED them to come up with changes that align with his ruling, but the legislature only picked and chose what they wanted to change, and made other changes that toughened things up. Bunch of B.S.

If you could give us a short comparison of the picking and choosing, and what if any Congress blatantly ignored as to the necessary changes? Thx.

I get they did what they did because they could even though it’s not right or ethical. How much more time will it take for people forced to register in Michigan to get true justice? All of this should come out of these piss ant’s accounts instead of taxpayers; yet they are just as dumb.

I remember when Michiganders spoke out against the bill; yet they passed it anyway. Truly respectful of the opposition of their disregard for people and their families to live in peace without their involvement.

Just to clarify, the judge didn’t order them to come up with changes, he suggested to do so, setting a time limit to do so. However that time limit got pushed back due to the pandemic and gave legislators ample time to push it thru.
Remember to, The legislators are not above the U.S. constitution.

@Mr.Ed…..your reasoned responses are appreciated. You’re plausible and hopefully credible. I think you’re making a whole lot sense and I hope what you’re describing will happen with everything I got. We tend to get our hope snatched away around here a lot! Your recent contributions to this forum are exactly why I like to follow along here…

Hard truth: The legislature can do whatever they want, registries are popular with with the public. They passed the law as a direct response to fix the issues addressed in the initial law suite, their hope is that this bare minimum will make it “ok”.

Ok Guys and Gals, maybe I’m just an idiot,and my comprehensive skills suck, but can any one please explain to me in laymens terms, what this actually means. The court held a retroactive punishment of the 2011 amendments to SORA can not be served. Several other SORA provisions were found unconstitutional for people who were convicted before the 2011 amendment was enacted. Thank you all in advance.

@bobby,
In layman’s terms, wait for July 12th, the judge Cleland said he will rule,

I told tim from the aclu. I dont want them representing me anymore this is total bullshit. The next lawsuit will probably take another three years and we will probably not get off the registry.

Hang onto your hat, the next lawsuit will address different issues such as life time registry, the tiers, and that. The current judgement coming up will address the current issues, and will be huge win.
With South Carolina getting their big win from final judgement, and couple other states to be heard , there’s going to be a big chain reaction to ease the registry.

This is how I understand this. The 2011 and 2006 Laws are unconstitutional and Connor be severed. We are left with the 2020 law, but retroactive application is NOT applicable at this time. The new 2020 law does not clarify if it’s retroactive and even if it did, it becomes a problem due to Michigan law. Still looks like Michigan will have to further clarify the new law if possible. Just my take.

So since the new law went into effect in march abd I was supposed to register in April but because I caught covid i didn’t make it in until June I could possibly get violated is hard getting in there sometimes because I have sole custody of my five year old son oh the fight there I seriously have a fear of taking him with me to register have to wait until he’s in school or I have a sitter

@Jlm: If you go to the main page of the Michigan SOR, this link is still prominently posted: https://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123–524592–,00.html

I believe, and someone here can correct me, that reporting obligations are not enforced until the COVID state of emergency is lifted, which is due in the fall I believe. Also, we are to be contacted by the state when Covid restrictions have been lifted and we are expected to register. June is my month to register, and unless anyone here convinces me otherwise, I do not plan to go to the MSP post to register.

That is correct. Not until the emergency orders are lifted, OR Judge Cleland determines that registration can go forward. Since I have not heard a word about either, I too will not be going.

I just spoke to someone at sora headquarters in Lansing. The lady was quite pleasant and apologetic that she didn’t have a definite answer to my question. I basically asked if the emergency orders have been lifted requiring in person verification. she said due to so many orders coming from the governor’s office, its unclear as to what, if any, orders may still be in place, and my best bet would be to contact the governor’s office for clarification.
She also said the state police is aware of Judge Cleland’s June 21, 2021 order and that they too are reviewing it to determine how it is going to be applied.
She said as far as she is concerned, registry verification is still on hold, but to not take that as gospel.
The Oakland County records office, where I normally go, still has it posted on their website that an appointment must be made to go verify due to covid precautions in place. They also do not have a definite yes or no answer.
We also know that Cleland has not lifted his injunction.
So I’m a little up in the air whether i want to “voluntarily” go verify, but if I do, it will be with the MSP post in Oak Park because I have heard that no appointment is needed, and its closer to my work.
I think I’ll flip a coin, but I don’t think anything will happen if I don’t go verify this month. But then again, this is Michigan…..

I went in. And your right, many sheriffs including state police are leaning and hoping for the ruling and take some offenders off registry and ease the burden. Many are tired of it. Even prosecutor I spoke with during lunch a couple weeks back is in favor of it, and says he has strong belief that many from 2011 back will come off. And Challenges to new Sora will address life time registry, and few other issues… saying it’s ridiculous.

Mr. Ed:
You are absolutely right. A lot of cops are pretty tired of the registry and want to see it come to and end. They are tired of babysitting people with 30 year old convictions. Most Detroit police have refused to do compliance checks from day one.
Meanwhile, the sheriffs down in Florida are getting their rocks off arresting people by the dozen for FTR. I can’t believe the sweeps in Florida for non-criminal offenses. The police in Florida have a different mindset. There has to be a county in Florida where they don’t do compliance checks. I have a hard time believing that all of the police in Florida are that stupid.

Honestly, I don’t understand why people allow “compliance checks”. PFRs should have access to their property completely blocked. Not just because of LE harassment either. If you are listed on the Hit Lists, your entire family is in danger. You should not be allowing anyone to get near your home or them. No one ever thinks that they will be a murder victim. It is always “someone else”. Until it is too late.

These “compliance checks” are just PR stunts. It is important for these criminal regimes to keep the dumb mob excited about the Hit Lists. “Compliance checks” are part of that. I guess that obvious, but I felt like saying it. That is the reason they give their harassment dumb names like “Operation Bullshit”. That is why the advertise them as widely as they can. That is why they invite the media along. PR stunts designed to grow them bigger and get them more $$$$$$$.

Cops ought to be tired of the Hit Lists. It makes them enemies of all good Americans. It puts them in danger. It turns their jobs into jokes.

No matter where you go, what state your in, you will always have those that will use sex offender or claiming they are in favor of tough laws just to glorify themselves and win over public.

Truth be told, Back when the registry took affect people were like oooh ahhhh, let’s check registry. Now fast forward to 2021, people ( the public) could give a flying ” F” about checking registry. New technology and 100,000 other apps more interesting, they haven’t time to go there and check any more.

Had politicians come to my house canvassing for their vote during the presidential election, using tough on sex offenders as their motto. with flyers. as they were pulling out, I took my lighter and set the flyer ablaze and tossed it on driveway. They never gotten elected either.
That tells you the public is sick of hearing that line as their motto to run for office.

So true. I know plenty of people who do not even know that the registry website exists, nor do they care about who is on it.
From a personal perspective, I only use it to look myself up to make sure there are never those red letters saying “NON COMPLIANT”. I’ve always been compliant but one never knows what kind of crap the state will pull. For example, a couple years ago I looked myself up and it said non compliant for palm print violation. You can imagine how terrified I was. I called Lansing about it and the lady I spoke with told me I’m not going to be arrested and to not worry. I explained that my prints were already on file with them, and had been for years. She said she knows, and that it was only because they needed to update them, and there were several thousand other RPs in the same situation. She told me to just mention it to the sheriff the next time I go verify and they’ll take care of it. My next verification just happened to be the current month, so the following Monday (it was a Friday) I went to verify and told them I needed my palm prints updated. No big deal. I was in and out in less that 15 minutes.
I think what you said holds a lot of water. A lot of people just don’t care about the registry any more. Its kind of like OTIS. When it first came out, everyone was there looking people up, but I think its lost its “excitement”.
On another note, there’s a lot of people wondering if they need to start verifying again. This is my month to do so and yesterday on the way home from work, I stopped by the State Police post in Oak Park to talk to them about it. The sergeant on duty told me it is indeed still voluntary and that I didn’t have to if I didn’t want to. I explained to him that I had mailed in the form to update my info, but everything on the site was still the same. I had a change in vehicles and employment. He showed me a stack of papers and said they’re pretty swamped updating everything, but will update me now if I wanted to. So I figured as long as I was there I’ll go ahead and take care of it. He was super cool about it and very apologetic to me for taking so long because his computer was really slow. We cracked a couple jokes back and forth, and even he said he’s tired of the registry and wishes it would go away. Normally i go to the Sheriff Department records office in Pontiac, and they’ve always been cool with me, but I think from now on I may just start going to MSP in Oak Park. They were that nice to me and actually treated me like a human being.

Disgusted in Michigan. Thank You for the post, I had the same experience at Oak Park State Police. I think the Pandemic changed peoples minds, no Forced Registration’s and all of use were normal people getting through life like everyone one else. Not monsters looking for little children to abduct, like the politicians like to portrait us. Hopefully things will start turning in favor for us and this will help the poor registrants in FL, cause its messed up down there

Channel 5 WNEM just reported pre 2011 registry to be taken down ,
MSP is considering!

I watched channel 5 wnem and I did not hear them say that pre 2011 registers to be taken down or that MSP is considering it.

Can you please share the link which states this?

Parts of Michigan’s Sex Offender Registration Act or SORA have been ruled unconstitutional, rendering the registration law un-enforceable against those convicted before April 11, 2011. Just type in Channel 5 WNEM into your browser and click local news and its all right there. MSP will comply and are reviewing it.

I watched it as well and heard nothing about anybody being removed.

Oh and if you want to know where @Detroit is….he’s over on FAC’s site spouting off how this won’t be over until the NEXT lawsuit because Cleland was the wrong judge for this case.

Wrong Judge? Hahahaha!! He ruled in our favor on just about everything. I’m going over to FAC and troll him.

Fac?

Florida Action Committee.
https://floridaactioncommittee.org/

Engage with him, but don’t troll him. Registry Supporters/Terrorists deserve disrespect and trolling, others don’t. Anyone fighting the Hit Lists is on the right side.

He may be on the right side, but for months he’s been feeding people misinformation. It ain’t right.
I’ve replied to him before explaining things but he doesn’t want to hear it. He has the mentality that he’s right and everyone else is wrong.
He said for months that everyone who is pre 2011 will be coming off the hit list and was giving a lot of people false hope. We all know the legislature did nothing to change the 25 to life ex post facto application of sora.

Yeah, so he replied over at FAC. I found the response to be quite offensive. He pulled the old, tired terrorist tripe of “I’m better than you because I’ve never done anything to be listed on a Hit List.” Also, “I have an awesome life and I’m really successful.” I don’t really have much use for such “people”. I don’t care if they are trolled.

Yup. I saw it too. I may have sounded a little hot headed in my initial response, but it was about the spreading of misinformation and giving people false hope. I never attacked him personally, nor did I try to disparage him. His reply shows us all who he really is, but doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I did reply back and kept it as civil as I could.
If you ask my opinion, people who brag about what they have usually don’t have a pot to piss in. I saw it too many times in prison. Guys talking about all the cars and “hos” they have on the streets, but always begging for Buglers on the yard and never getting a bag on store day.

@Disgusted….I saw his response as well and was pretty disappointed. For somebody supposedly not on a SOR, he sure is invested in the goings on of this whole situation. All this “insider” knowledge and he’s repeatedly wrong. Apparently, we should all just fall down & worship him because he’s doing SO much more than any of us….

IKR? He claims to be an ex cop, but I am wondering how many times he beat or tazed a handcuffed suspect, how many times he planted drugs on people, how many times he falsified a police report.
But you’ve stated the same thing I’ve been thinking for months. I find it odd for someone who says he has no legal expertise and has never been on the registry to be invested so much in this case.
Its pretty smarmy to try to portray yourself as being better than someone else solely because you claim have material things. I don’t even understand how that is relevant to the comment I made to him. I’ve never claimed to be better than anyone else, but I will state on the record here that I’m a better person than he is, and to prove it, I am done replying to him or even talking about him, other than a final warning for everyone to not heed a word he says.

Well, I did intend to be done with it, but when he is spreading straight up lies, I have to say something. Perhaps my choice of words in my comment about going to FAC to “troll” him wasn’t the best word to use. I’m man enough to admit that. I should have just said I’m going to go set him straight on the facts. I’ve said before that he has been spreading misinformation and you can see this for yourselves on his recent post over at FAC. He said about me, and I quote, “Go to ACSOL’s site and read disgusting in Michigan’s comments. He admits to being a troll and admits he likes to sabotage others in this debate. He gets off on crawling under other people’s skin and then getting a reaction from the person he trolls. This is why I rarely respond to his comments.
Read his comment in this post. He intentionally misinterprets this case to make it look like a loss. Gerald corrected him. These trolls add nothing to the debate and are here to only spread misinformation and serve as a distraction.” Really? Show me my comment where I said I’m only here to “sabotage” others. Show me where I intentionally misinterpreted this case. I interpreted it the way I understand it. He also said, “This clown admitted that he is only trolling on theses sites and trying to cause trouble.” Most of you know me well enough to know that I have NEVER tried to cause trouble on this site. Talk about spreading misinformation.
I never said we lost the Does II case. We did win, but not as big as we wanted. Judge Cleland ruled in our favor on every issue, yet the legislature failed to do anything about the ex post facto issue of changing the 25 years to lifetime. While the change of the school safety zones and other things we were previously required to do have now been changed, I think everyone here was more concerned about the lifetime registration, and now, to my understanding, its not very clear what will happen with that. We have no idea if that is going to change when Cleland publishes his final order or if there will have to be more litigation. But we DO know how he ruled on that issue so I think it will eventually change. I’m not a lawyer, nor do I claim to be one, and I will NEVER offer anyone legal advice, but I do understand certain aspects of the law. Well enough that I filed a Writ of Habeas Corpus in pro se and WON back in 2000. Even the judge in the case complimented me on how well it was written with no prior legal training.
I am deeply invested in DOES II just as much as everyone else here, and the last thing on my mind would be to try to sabotage it, so tell me who the real spreader of misinformation is.
NOW I am done with him.

Last edited 1 month ago by Disgusted in Michigan

You need to watch it again. I just found it and that’s NOT what it said. It was reporting on how the OLD sora was unconstitutional and now that the new one has been signed into law, the MSP will comply with the NEW sora law. It did not say anything about being “taken down”.
If you don’t understand something, please ask questions because misinformation does no one any good.

https://www.wnem.com/sex-offender-registry-lawsuit-moves-forward/video_0e57d392-a7b4-57b4-87c3-967be92a01f6.html

@dim.
This is posted under the video,,,
Parts of Michigan’s Sex Offense Registration Act or SORA have been ruled unconstitutional, rendering the registration law un-enforceable against those convicted before April 11, 2011.
I have always gotten my information in writing, not video’s
And if I can find last night’s taping I’ll post it, sorry to ruffle your feathers,,,,,

Maybe you should get all the information before you post

Last edited 1 month ago by Dr.

The quote about parts of it being unconstitutional and cannot be applied to ore 2011 registrants is talking about what Judge Cleland ruled last year on the old sora. Its not talking about the new amended version.
Even though Cleland ruled the 2011 amendment retroactively changing 25 years to life is an ex post facto violation, the legislature did nothing to change that when drafting the new bill.
All we can do is wait until July 12 to see if Cleland does anything about it in his final order, but I doubt that will happen. New litigation will have to be brought to challenge it again. Most likely it will be changed at a later time because every court in Michigan has already ruled it to be unconstitutional.
You didn’t ruffle my feathers and I apologize if I came off that way. The news statement about parts of sora being unconstitutional is talking about the previous law, nit the new amended version.

WNEM channel 5 just reported,
Pre 2011 register is unconstitutional and will be removed, MSP is working on it. ???
Thanks Detroit

Ok, maybe I just don’t understand this I watched the video and read the article from channel 5, yes it says that the 2011 amendment can’t be applied to those of us that are pre-2006 and 2011 or even pre- 95 like my self, but it didn’t say anything about removing us from the registry. Did I miss something or not comprehend something in the video or article. Any clarification about what this means would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

@bobby,
No, you didn’t miss anything,
You read the same thing I did and I am pre 94,

I will wait for July 12th,

They’ll have to eventually pronounce the necessary distinction between the people(states) having a database of known offenders versus the people’s having a database of offenders AND enslaving said offenders to the lifetime upkeep of the database property’s maintenance.

The first is mostly absent affirmative restraint, the latter is full of affirmative disability @#1 The right to remain silent.

Let’s see if I am understanding this correctly; After 9 years of fighting this law, it is ruled unconstitutional. So, the state just passes another law that is basically the same as the first one. Now they say we have to start a separate lawsuit that will likely take another 9 years to be decided, just so the state can pass yet another law that is basically the same as the first two. This is some serious bull. Why even bother fighting this if that is what will happen?

Tim said there will have to be anothher lawsuit.

How does Tim know what judge Cleland is going to do after both parties submit evidence for a ruling?
After July 12 ?

Just asking,,,,

Last edited 1 month ago by Dr.

It’s not just Tim. Even this article says a new lawsuit will need to be started to address the new SORA. They asked Cleland to address it. He declined, as it’s a “new law”, not the one he already heard.
The judgement after July 12th is for the old SORA that isn’t even being used anymore. It’s just to finalize the Does II suit.

Sick ! Fock the state of Mi ! I hope 45,000 people on this hit list in this state snap and they will pay for their actions.

Advocates and offenders complaining to fed courts is one tact, utilizing trials rights in FTR scenario is quite another.

There is a specific reasons the originals of judgment are kept at the local level in the clerk of courts office. JUST IN CASE someone changes their position ( disputes)as to what is ( was) lawfully owed by defendant.

Because we now have precedent once this judgement goes into effect, hopefully any newly-needed lawsuits will be slam-dunks! I also hope that given precedent, immediate injunctions will be placed on the new SORA pending the outcome.

Dr:
None of us know how Judge Cleland will rule. We do know what he has ruled so far so can make an educated guess to some points but other points are up in the air.
Don’t look to July 12th as the day that he will issue his decision. That’s the date the parties have to submit their proposed final order. He may not issue the final order until August or September. The good news is that a final order will be issued soon. It doesn’t sound like he will deal the new law in his final order. If not, it sounds like the ACLU is prepared to file a new suit.
I hope the Oliver Law Group will be involved in any new legislation. I say this because the ACLU will not seek monetary compensation. The Oliver Law Group will if they believe they have a viable argument for monetary compensation.
This is the big question, will registrants who were taken off of the registry by these various decisions be eligible for monetary compensation if Michigan compels them to register in the future. Whitmer violated the court’s various decisions when she signed the new legislation. Aspects of this new law directly conflict with these various court decisions. Michigan can harass registrants with this new law. These past decisions could form the basis for monetary compensation in the future. I have not researched the issue to know for certain if monetary compensation is a possibility but I have been following the Oliver Law Group’s website since they came on board and find it very interesting. Previously, they were a generic law firm with a generic website. Now they are the guardians of the rights of people with a sex offense conviction. I may be wrong but I am getting the impression that they anticipate a big payday.
This is where we stand. The courts have ruled that various aspects of the registry are unconstitutional and have issued a series of rulings that remove thousands from the registry. Whitmer is free to ignore the court’s rulings and enforce the new law that contravenes these rulings. If Whitmer enforces this new law and the registrants are eligible for monetary compensation, you are talking compensation that could go into billions of dollars. I’m not 100% sure that registrants are eligible for monetary compensation but believe they most likely would be.
Whitmer’s only option to avoid the monetary compensation issue is to abide by the various court orders which would lead to a wholesale removal of people from the registry.
In all fairness to Whitmer and Dana Nessel, this is not their mess. This is a mess because Bill Schuette made it a mess. Whitmer is only playing the hand that Schuette dealt.
To add an extraordinary twist to this bizarre series of events, Michigan voters elected Dana Nessel as AG. Dana Nessel opposes the bulk of the registry and made it known that she would go even further than these court decisions and remove probably 90% or more of these people from the registry. She made the mistake of siding with people on the registry in her first term. Now she’s up for re-election in 2022. If she does what she wants and removes the bulk of people from the registry in 2021, her chances of re-election in 2022 are shot. You know what they say about reality, you can’t make this stuff up.
The best thing for people forced to register in Michigan to do is to support Dana Nessel for re-election in 2022 and allow the can to be kicked past the 2022 elections but this may not be possible after Cleland issues his final order. If Whitmer is astute I believe she can push this past the 2022 elections but you have to remember that Whitmer is up for re-election in 2024. I just can’t see the can getting kicked past the 2024 elections if Cleland signs the final order in 2021.
A lot of people don’t understand why they are still on the registry after all of these court decisions. Bill Schuette is responsible for this mess. I don’t know if he dragged it out because he honestly believes in the registry or because he was running for governor in 2020, or both. But he sure put Michigan in a mess and Whitmer and Nessel in a pickle.
This could end Nessel’s political career so it’s important that everyone that supports civil rights stand behind Dana Nessel in 2022. Nessel could be the politician that takes down the registry in Michigan if she runs for governor in the future. This could lead to a nationwide chain reaction. The plot thickens. Stay tuned.

Sounds like you have found some of my old posts

Tim is not accurate there. Yes a new suit will have to be filed, but to address issues that were not addressed in does suit, he didn’t mention that part. Tim is an Intern, a glorified secretary. He still has a lot to learn yet.
But he’s learning. Good guy but sometime not all of his facts are straight.

Tim is a volunteer. He is a real decent person giving his time to an incredibly unpopular cause. He has regular contact with the attorneys so has a fair grasp for a layperson. I have never heard any incorrect information come from him. The information is sparse because I’m sure they don’t discuss much outside of the legal staff. If there is any confusion, I believe it’s a combination of frustration because his info is so sparse and people are misinterpreting what little he does say. Also, his volunteer assignment has to do with the legislative work. When he answers registrants questions this is outside of his regular volunteer work. He’s trying to fill in the gaps because there is really no one else to answer questions. The ACLU’s budget is very limited so volunteers are an important part of their mission. Everyone should appreciate him and the other ACLU volunteers for volunteering for such an unpopular cause.

Oh I appreciate Tim, a good guy indeed. He has went the length to help out. But though his answers are sometimes hearsay in general ( speculation) passed on by attorneys, though he does address facts and set the wording right. He is doing a good job per say.

The court held a retroactive punishment of the 2011 amendments to SORA can not be served. Several other SORA provisions were found unconstitutional for people who were convicted before the 2011 amendment was enacted.
My point is,
How can anyone ANYONE
know what the judge is going to do? Tim, you, ME, or WNEM channel 5 !
at the top of this article, it is pulled from network tv,
1 more thing, I have never trolled anyone and I will not be associated with anyone or group that allows trolling

You can’t know what judge is going to do, however if you been in front of him before, which I have 3 times as a plaintiff, and know people that know him on a personal level, you CAN predict what he will do. He’s very solid in the constitution, and very fair. He Won’t tolerate B.S. And he won’t be steered from constitution. He WILL rule in our favor.

Dr:
You are absolutely correct. These court decisions will remove many people from the registry and give the remainder a date certain for removal if their offense date predates July 1, 2011. I agree with most of what Mr. Ed stated and would like to add the issue of monetary compensation.
You usually cannot receive monetary compensation when a state enforces a bad law. You can receive monetary compensation if a bad law is overturned in court and the state continues to enforce the unconstitutional portions after the previous court decision became final. Keep in mind that what I am saying doesn’t guarantee that monetary compensation will be litigated in the next lawsuit. I am only bringing up the possibility of monetary compensation because having a previous court decision that has become final is a prerequisite to requesting monetary compensation in future litigation.
It doesn’t matter if Cleland addresses the new law or not in his final order. What is important is how soon he signs the order. You cannot receive monetary compensation for the state enforcing a bad law until after he signs that order. If your employer found out today that you are on the registry and fires you, you cannot receive compensation because this decision is not final. You can request monetary compensation if you are fired after Cleland signs the final order in a future lawsuit.
One of the reasons I believe that monetary compensation will be an issue in the next lawsuit is because the ACLU brought in the Oliver Law Group after it already won. The ACLU does not seek monetary compensation but the Oliver Law Group will if they believe they can win monetary compensation.
Also, I have watched the Oliver Law Group’s website evolve from a generic website to where now they are advertising that they specialize in “mass torts”, “class actions” and “human rights”. I believe the “human rights” is an evolution of their previous claim that they are advocates for people convicted of a sex offense in order to rebrand into something more palatable.
This rebranding of their website tells you that they are undergoing a major change that usually means something big is going to happen. This rebranding may involve other litigation that they are involved in and may not have anything to do with the registry. What makes most sense to me is, I believe that this litigation has forced them to rebrand and they are rebranding in anticipation that this will be one of the largest lawsuits of it’s time. It won’t produce as much money as what the tobacco lawsuits produced but has the potential to yield some serious money for the Oliver Law Group.
It’s too premature to discuss monetary compensation and any attorney will tell you this. You cannot discuss this until you have a final order in your previous lawsuit and even then it could be years before monetary compensation is requested. The only thing you can do is wait and see. The only difference between the current litigation and the next lawsuit is that you might be getting paid if they force you to register if you are not required to do so. Be patient. Good things may be coming your way if they force you to register after Cleland signs his final order. It will be several years before you know for sure.

I want to touch on this monetary thing…..and hopefully many on here will see this.

As I mentioned earlier I faced judge Cleland on 3 occasions. Between 2014 and 2015. What had happened was my wife and I were in a bad auto accident where the other driver was at fault. Hit head on. The insurance company suddenly stopped paying my medical bills and all. I filed complaint with Lansing ( Dept. of Insurance affairs ..something like that) they sent a letter to insurance company asking why and opened an investigation towards them. They (insurance company) responded back saying one I was a level 3 sex offender, and two they were conducting and investigation on insurance fraud to see if my injuries were legit.

Lansing forwarded a copy of the letter from insurance to me then called me to say ” I’m not supposed to give advice, but get an attorney and go after them, they are not doing you correctly and are in the wrong here”

So I did, and even had the backing of doctors and creditors being patient about it saying they are not right here.

Going in front of Cleland was Funny because the insurance company opened the case by stating I was an offender. Cleland glanced over to me then over to him and said ” You mean your not paying any of these bills because he’s an offender??” The insurance company well no that’s not it at all, it triggered to investigate possible insurance fraud” Cleland responded and did you find any fraud?” Well it’s on going insurance company said. My attorney presents the letter that Lansing forwarded to me. Cleland is like,
“tell me why it takes 2 yrs. to investigate, and why you haven’t informed any of his ( Me) doctors or creditors your investigating? You are aware there is a time limit on investigations and you found nothing?” This is a paying customer that has never missed his premiums, has unlimited coverage and your stripping that from him because he’s an offender, that should not be a standing issue here.

The guy had 9 surgeries, his wife nearly died, and you you think that is fraud because he is an offender?? Cleland says to the insurance lawyer. In my head I was laughing at this and thinking dude, you have no Idea who your F***n with.

To make a long story short, Cleland ordered the insurance company to pay 360 thou to pay off all bills to doctor and creditors, pay my lawyer fees, and pay my wife and I, 3 yrs of suffering of our credit and such because of it. LOL….that attorney just folded his books and dropped them on table. ACLU would have loved this case.

Point is, you have those out there that will try to glorify themselves and even save company money by using sex offense against you.

And that’s why I believe Cleland is very fair. That’s why I have faith in this final judgement coming up.

And as for monetary you mentioned, possible. I believe Cleland would go for it. But trust me that one would be a hard fight against state for monetary compensation. Not impossible however.

Hello all,
As an offender myself, convicted in 91, did a yr and half. I was suddenly placed on registry in 94. Level one. suddenly in 2006 and 2011 I was moved to tier 3. I couldn’t believe it.

I want to share some insights here as I have faced Judge Cleland 3 different times as a plaintiff in a lawsuit ( against Insurance company not paying accident claim because I was a sex offender).. He sided with me and forced insurance to pay, with interest.

I come from a family of law enforcement, state reps, and a couple lawyers….I was the black sheep that got into trouble. Never the less I hold 2 degrees.

What I wanted to point out is Judge Cleland is very fair. His heart is imbeded in the constitution, you won’t get him to stray from it. That said, he is a believer if you do the crime, you do the time. However he is against life time of being on registry. He doesn’t approve of that one bit. He is a believer of second chances. But he views it it a fine tooth comb.

I told Tim back in march when new law ( new sora) took affect, not to throw towel in just yet, judge Cleland does not like the new law, the new Sora. He will rule in our favor. Of course he didn’t believe me, and shot that down as not possible. But I have inside ( behind the grape vine) input from those that know, work around and deal with Cleland, the State police, prosecutors and that. Most are heavily confused of the wording associated with the new Sora. Many counties are sitting back waiting for the final ruling, and have been long before New Sora, and many are not following the New Sora to the key.

I recently had the privilege of sitting down with a county prosecutor during lunch time and having a discussion. ( getting my gun rights restore, which I’m eligible for in Michigan according to prosecutor). We got on the subject of my past felony, and being on registry. He doesn’t like the new registry and claims many officers and staff find it difficult to follow, and confused if not very vague.

One thing very interesting, is the new Sora’s wording ( read very very carefully through it) does NOT mention or indicate it being retroactive, nor recapture. That alone will work in our favor. Watch closely in coming days and months ( on new suit) how that gets addressed. If and how judge Cleland rules final judgement, and add improvisions to it. For example if indeed the pre-2011 are unconstitutional, and is ruled as such, it can’t be carried over to new Sora.

The new suit on New Sora will address all other issues. That’s how a few top brass explained it to me. With South Carolina supreme court ruling final judgement that life time registry is unconstitutional, and two other states following suit. There’s going to be a big chain reaction to happen….watch and learn.

Also as prosecutor was saying, when registry came out, there was like 5-6 hundred hits a day to it. Now your lucky to get 20-30 a week. No one pays attention to it nor cares about it anymore…Bottom line it doesn’t work and serves no useful purpose anymore. Also a key factor in our fight.

Thanks

That’s the feeling I got from reading not only his opinions in the Does II case, but from other case law I’ve read. He seems to be on the side of the Constitution, even when its in favor of us “lowly outcasts of society”.
Thanks for sharing.

No Problem brother, I have a good feeling about this, because South Carolina just ruled and finalized that life time registry is unconstitutional and that was a huge blow to the state. Those registrants now have to be released or changed. How many other states will now start filing suits using this ruling as foundation…Oh it’s about to get pretty interesting.
Did you know the federal registry from Barr, got tabled? LOL…that’s funny.

@ mr. Ed

My registry story is the same, except I was sentenced for 30 days county back in 93,
I’ve read so many armchair lawyer posts over the 27 years from multiple sources that I have learned to wait until the guy in charge puts his opinion in writing.

That’s fine, I respect that. Your entitled to your opinion and can’t blame you after they ( the state) has dragged us all through the mud for so many years. But that’ll change.

@Mr. Ed – can you expand a little bit on your feelings of the new law not mentioning retroactive application? What is your gut telling you as to the way to potentially use that in our favor? Just want your opinion… New lawsuit points this out and for those of use pre 2011 we could not be subject to a new law without retroactive inclusion? I asked the same of the FAC, they also pointed this out in a reply comment but didn’t really expand on it. Thank you!

There is a lot of confusion over the old Sora and New…And talk about new lawsuit, which they’ll bring and my opinion, won’t take long to be heard, least not 2 years, given other states are ruling ( south Carolina) lifetime registry is unconstitutional.

Bear in mind there is nothing new about the new Sora laws, it’s basically a modification of the old one. Same law really. A few things were removed and addressed in new Version pertaining to the “Does” case, but not all.
One of the main issues in the old Sora and “Does” case is the post ex facto violation. In revising the old sora to new, they just changed the wording to make it more complicated. Some words were changed, such as a boat is no longer a vehicle, it’s a vessel. Stuff like that. Also keep in mind, the new Sora is not retroactive or recapture, because there was no need to, it’s really not new, just revised from the old, most (90%) of it is same old Sora.

The issue with the does case pertains to violation of constitution with 2006 & 2011 amendments to the Sora. This actually doesn’t affect ALL offenders, just a handful prior to 2006 & 2011. That’s the reason there will be a new Law suit against the new version of the Sora to address the entire registry.

The mis-confusion here is that The final decision was delayed for more than a year due to the pandemic, it gave legislators time to push revision of the Sora through, it did not address the violations, a little, but not ex post facto.

Also in deciding final Judgement decision on case, it’s submitting of briefs of both sides AND WHEREAS, the Defendants agree to be bound by the provisions of this Final Judgment pending its approval by this Court. Final Judgment does not constitute any admission by the Defendants that the law has been violated or of any issue of fact or law.

Keep in mind too ( and I read posts here that final judgement is already done…wrong) Bear in mind with final judgement the judge has the right to determining whether the Final Judgment should be modified or vacated. Court retains jurisdiction to enable any party to this Final Judgment to apply to this Court at any time for further orders and directions as may be necessary or appropriate to carry out or construe this Final Judgment, to modify any of its provisions, to enforce compliance, and to punish violations of its provisions.

The final Judgement indicates the judge’s opinion as to the outcome of an action and must be ‘rendered.

Bear in mind also Cleland already ruled ex facto was unconstitutional, the court did indeed intend the original “opinion and order” to function as the “final determination” of the rights and obligations before the case got delayed during pandemic.

So…. my opinion you ask.

Cleland will uphold his decision that post ex facto is in violation and unconstitutional. That will be final judgement with the judges summary and opinion. That’s my gut feeling.

How does that affect everyone? Primarily, it won’t affect everyone. Just those affected by the changes in 2006 & 2011. Everyone else will be bound by the new rules. ” THAT’S why there will be a new Lawsuit.

What happens if he upholds the ruling unconstitutional? 2 things could happen, Those prior to 2011 will revert back to old system of 25 yrs then come off. So if you were convicted in early 90’s you could come off. Clock doesn’t count incarceration, starts after release. So keep that in mind. The other way is they release all prior to 2011 of registry, which I doubt they’ll do, possible, but don’t hold your breath.

Cleland could speculate either, knowing it won’t affect but a handful, state may even go along with it knowing same thing.

So what good is it to anyone even if he upholds his ruling? Lot’s, lot’s…this paves the way for next lawsuit on The so called new Sora to address all offenders and all issues of the tier. It would be an excellent win. Added too that South Carolina ruled final judgement lifetime registry is unconstitutional, and a couple other states filing and using South Carolina as a reference is damn good. A chain reaction is about to start.

Exactly. You couldn’t have laid it out any better. This is also how I have interpreted it.
Thanks for sharing.

Your Welcome… And about time we seen some action.

@ Mr. Ed. Just so i understand, since my conviction was 6-19-1992 and i got out 12-15-1994 and off parole on 12-15-1996. and my original 25 years was up June of 2020, i should be removed from the registry automatically according to your statement above correct?

Also thank you for layingit out and explaining it the way you did, very much appreciated,

That would be correct. But lets wait for the final judgement. I am confident he’ll rule and uphold it. But anything could happen, like being in bad mood, someone pissing him off. Doubt it but could. Too much falling on state right now with many recent rulings that the thread is getting mighty thin.

I am very interested in clarifying the changes in the law about a boat. I own a small boat and was arrested for FTR in 2018. I was let off due to the fact that the law distinguishes vehicle and a vessel. A vehicle you have 3 days to update. A vessel you update on your next normal update. Has that changed?

I’s hard to say as it’s quite confusing, I bought a boat last year,
because of pandemic and secretary of state closed, there was a long delay. But even then, I went in to register last month, they still had no idea how to address my boat or if to log it. So they didn’t stating they are too confused over the new Sora wording…..
…” the requirement to report “[t]he license plate number, registration number, and description of any motor vehicle, aircraft, or vessel regularly operated by the individual,”
Mich. Comp. Laws.§ 28.727(1)(j)…..”
;
That said my fight would be….What constitutes “regularly Operated” per say in the wording….

So I asked that at last registration, they did not know, the police department called Lansing, they too did not know how to answer that either… because I can go a yr, and maybe take boat out once, if at all. Like last year. So what constitutes regularly operated??? I asked the prosecutor over a phone call,
he didn’t know either, saying good question, he didn’t know how to interpret it.

Bottom line the Sora wording has become very Vague and very confusing That authority can’t even decipher it. So Highly unlikely they can charge you for it when they don’t understand it themselves, right??

Mr. Ed / Warpath. It is my understanding that the vessel and aircraft were removed from the New SORA? I read and did not see it in at all anymore, nor ATV. Also the wording is no longer “regularly operated” as this was struck down in Does I as Vague. Hence the New SORA states for VEHICLES something like (more burdensome) is registered to or operates. This means everything you would operate, even for a run to the party store potentially. Am I missing something?

I’d sure hate to be a car valet or a porter at a car dealership, if one must register every vehicle operated.

That’s the same issue with the 1000 foot school zone. They didn’t know how to measure it. Was it edge of property line to edge of property line? Center to center? Building to building? A straight line as the crow flies? It was vague.
Just another fine example of why registries have become nothing but a bunch of bull because the legislature doesn’t take the time to actually think about the laws they pass. Oh wait…they don’t think. That’s the problem

Sir, possibly my biggest annoyance with the Hit List stupidity is that they intentionally write their “laws” vaguely. It must be intentional, right? Even a high school freshman is smart enough to recognize parts of the “laws” that are vague and KNOW without doubt that it will cause problems for piles of people in the future. So, it’s intentional.

Why do they do that? Of course they don’t have to, so why? Lazy? Dumb? Malicious? I think one reason is because they know they will not be able to get away with as much harassment if they concretely define it. They are also weasels. They don’t want to have to firmly define something and have to stand by it. They’d rather say, “Well, we tried but the liberal judges love child molesters.” They are weak weasels.

What has worked very well for me with these things in the past is to contact all of the relevant parties at the same time, in writing, and state what I think it means and what I will follow unless they respond differently. That has worked every single time. I can only recall needing to get an attorney involved once, in order to force a response.

I wouldn’t bet on that “highly unlikely they can charge you for it” for a second. I feel they arrest people for the fun of it and let the courts sort it out. All while they remain immune.

Also, I think you meant to say “per se in the wording”. Freaking auto-correct will change lots of things!

Well they write it Vaguely for a reason…in layman’s terms, it would be like a batman movie, the joker says you can’t save both, you have to chose one or the other.
This is where lawsuits get tangled up is the written jargon. Or gets over looked, or takes focus off one issue to allow another to sneak through. That’s the game legislators are playing.
it’s time for us, the ACLU the law firms, and judge to play their trump card and call checkmate.

One thing I would point out to everyone is to make sure your file is correct, your paper work is correct when registering.
Human errors happen. One thing I fell victim to in past is a computer system glitch from Lansing, or where ever they had my data on.
Computers are subject to updates, software updates , and Etc… Data can be entered incorrectly. And I fell victim to that.

I was arrested 4 times in a 2 year period for failure to register new address. Same warrant over and over. I never moved!! been here 15 yrs at this address. What happened was an update to computer system reverted my address back to an old one. It triggered a warrant for failure to register.

After appearing in court and showing all paper work, they couldn’t prove I ever moved. so case dismissed.

But… computer kicked the same warrant right back out 2 months later. And again arrested.
same cop too, he looked puzzeled as he noticed same warrant. I was released as soon as I got to the jail with a paper to appear in court. That got quickly dismissed in court.

A few months later the computer kicked it out a 3rd time, same warrant. Same cop came to arrest me. Didn’t even hand cuff me this time, just said hop in front. He was just doing his job, but confused as I was. This time attorney laided into prosecutor and judge, I never even made it it court room. Prosecutor apologized and promised it wouldn’t come up again. Wrong..

A 4th time was arrested, same damn warrant.
Same cop…And was released by magistrate judge to appear. Never made it in court room. But attorney filed motion to sue and gave them a time limit to correct this. Judge chewed out prosecutor, whom came out to hall to apologize and said it will definitely be corrected. Of course, because next time will involve a law suit big time.

Since then I never had a problem. And cops have been super nice lately.

Wow. Even they even talked about arresting me I would retaliate. I certainly would if they did arrest me. I’d also sue every single time. Maybe I’m just an ahole.

Mr Ed – 4 times arrested because they could not fix the glitch? That is so ridiculous. My question is now, though, do all these arrests show on a Live Scan or other criminal history record?

No, attorney made sure of it. And no you can’t sue for a glitch in human error. You can by the time you get to 4th arrest for same warrant. Keep in mind it was same warrant and warrant number over and over. By the 4th time, the judge granted my attorney permission to sue if not all taken off the system and fixed. I haven’t heard Sh*t sense about that warrant.
And yea …it was very ridiculous. Made prosecutor look like an Arse.

“…And no you can’t sue for a glitch in human error….”

Sorry, but that’s bullshit. Yes, the FIRST TIME it was an error and a glitch. The fact that it wasn’t fixed and allowed to happen a second, third, and fourth time is called: NEGLIGENCE and DERELICTION OF DUTY. They need to be sued!!!

I’m so sick and tired of the government and their f***ing “Sovereign Immunity”. Nothing is ever going to change unless they are held to the same standards and the rest of us.

In this layman’s opinion, that it’s confusing and/or inconsistently applied is pure gold in a lawsuit. But please don’t act based on my opinion.

All opinions matter, we are all a voice that must be heard in order to defend our constitutional rights.

It is evident to me that most of you do not know what “Final Judgement” means. This is not where the Judge rules. This case has already been decided. It’s over. The final judgement is the last step before closing the case. It’s where the judge writes his summary spelling out his decision and how it will be enforced and the clerk files it away.Case closed. No more ruling on this case will happen.

Wrong….court did indeed intend the original “opinion and order” to function as the “final determination of the rights and obligations. The judgement indicates the judge’s opinion as to the outcome of an action and must be ‘rendered.’
Final Judgment does not constitute any admission by the Defendants that the law has been violated or of any issue of fact or law. Court retains jurisdiction to enable any party to this Final Judgment to apply to this Court at any time for further orders and directions as may be necessary or appropriate to carry out or construe this Final Judgment, to modify any of its provisions, to enforce compliance, and to punish violations of its provisions.



I will say this mr. ed you are definitly one smart person in this matter.

Thank you, I went to 7 years of college, 2 yrs in law before changing direction and going into engineering. My felony would probably not get me far in doing law. But was nice to have under my belt.

On another note… Supreme court also ruled in final decision that
birth dates can no longer be used in doing back ground checks. That’s a good thing really, because companies can’t tell if it was indeed you that did a crime without actual birthdates.

Sure, Companies can use drivers license number or Social security number. But technically can’t ask for those on an application.
Second, using drivers license and social security requires a deeper search and cost companies more. Many don’t bother with more money for it. Some will yes. But not all.

@MrEd: Check out the story of Guy Hamilton-Smith, who sometimes posts here. He’s a fellow registrant who got his law degree and passed the bar in Kentucky recently, I believe. Used to have an active Twitter account where but I fear trolls scared him off. He seems like he’s been fairly successful despite his status as a registrant.

I don’t think we’ll be seeing much of GHS for awhile.

Oh yea, heard about that. But wonder if it’s recognized in Michigan? Oh well, I went into Aerospace instead.

Hi All,
Want to clarify something so that there is an understanding of what’s really happening here. Many think that Cleland made final judgement back March 2020. That was merely a final Judgement brief/Opinion, not the entry. And that the New revised Sora didn’t address what he entered….

Let’s clear that up…

In that order Cleland also addressed….

“To be clear:
SORA will not become unenforceable as of the date of this order. Rather,
the holdings in this opinion will become effective and enforceable only after the entry of a final judgment , at the time specified in that final judgment….”

This means sora was and remains enforceable to this day in some ways to a point, and state moved quickly to revise the new sora revision, leaving intact most of it anyway. Because of pandemic, this final order entry was delayed for over a year.

The final judgement entry is coming, and may be upheld.

Another issue that didn’t get a lot of focus and may be why there will be another lawsuit is….

At the hearing, the parties agreed that the 2006 amendments were severable.
The court’s analysis like the parties’ briefs will focus on the severability of the 2011 amendments because if the 2011 amendments cannot be severed, SORA cannot apply to any members of the ex post facto subclasses, including registrants whose crimes subjecting them to registration were committed before the enactment of the 2006 amendments.
See infra
Part IV.
A.3.

Upon the entry of final judgment in this case, Defendants will be
permanently enjoined from enforcing any provision of SORA against members of the ex post facto subclasses and will be permanently enjoined from enforcing the provisions described in Part III.B of this opinion against any
registrant. ( this is if his final opinion is upheld and signed as final entry.)
.
( Important Note here).. 1) That was not final judgement, it’s was the judges opinion towards final judgement entry. Upon entry … means it hasn’t yet been entered by final judgement ..Yet. The state can do what ever it likes until that entry.

Also… regarding the 2011 amendments
The plaintiff’s didn’t address this thoroughly. They did 2006, And Legislation took it upon themselves to leave it intact when revising the new sora.

BUT…. this can be addressed and modified in final judgement entry. Or addressed in new lawsuit if not modified.

You see, what the Michigan Legislators did was align the Sora with the National Model …SORNA. And the court knew Legislation would try and do this.

You are correct on all counts regarding the previous Michigan SORA law. Cleland is going to put to rest the old law and render it unenforceable, because the legislation indeed did not bring it into compliance with the 6th’s ruling. Like you said, it’s still enforceable and it won’t be when the final judgement is issued. The old law.

This does not address the new law. He hasn’t even looked at the new law. This case was about the old law. Until the new one is brought before him in a new suit, he likely only has a vague description of what is in it. He is not going to order his clerks to analyze and decipher the complex new law when there isn’t even a lawsuit pending on it yet. That isn’t how the system works. They focus on what they in front of them. that was presented by lawyers from both parties. They do not scan through other laws out there on their own just to make sure everything aligns right.

Our best hope for Michigan registrants at this point is that Cleland will at least include a preliminary injunction on the new law in his final judgement, which will render it unenforceable pending the outcome of a new lawsuit. I am not counting on that though.

I hope I am wrong about everything here, but I don’t think I am. It’s time to let the does v Snyder cases go and focus on starting a new lawsuit and hope it goes quicker than the previous one.

I sent this to the wrong article earlier but i email Paul R, with a few questions about the the final order, and this is what i got back if anyone is interested.

Thanks for your note. Quick answers are below. Everything is tied to the fact that the state passed a new SORA (which became effective 3/24/21). 

1. The Does II judgment will say that people like you cannot be prosecuted for any SORA compliance violation from 4/12/11 to 3/23/21 because SORA was unconstitutional during that time as applied retroactively to you. Since the statute of limitations is 6 years on such criminal liability, this is good news, as it means any violation for the past 6 years can no longer be prosecuted. 

2. You likely are covered by the new law (SORA 2021) and you should have recently gotten a notice in the mail describing it and your new duties under it. The Sixth Circuit ruled that the old law was unconstitutional, but never said that people must come off the registry — unless the state fails to pass a new law that resolves the constitutional defects. The state’s position is that the new law, which is very similar to the federal SORNA and which has mostly been held to be constitutional, now passes constitutional muster. 

3. We agree with you that the new law is so like the old law that the courts should still hold it to be unconstitutional. But because the state removed a few of the worst provisions — the school zones, strict liability for any violation (willful or not), the duty to report phones, emails, and cars “routinely” used (whatever that meant) — we could have a harder time persuading a court that the new law, too, rises to the level of punishment. 

Nevertheless, we are working up a new global class action challenge to SORA 2021. We are right now gathering expert reports, coming up with new legal claims, and we have recruited the plaintiffs from Does I and Does II to serve as named plaintiffs in Does III. We expect to file the new case in the fall — we were delayed first because we did not want to file Does III until Does II was fully resolved, and because it takes forever to get experts to come on board and to prepare what we need to file the new case.

Our goal is to reduce the time people must serve on the registry, and to tie it to individualized assessment of current risk. We know that most sex offenders will never commit a second offense, and after 10 years most people on the registry pose no higher risk of committing a new sex offense than non-sex offenders are, and indeed most are no higher risk than males in the general population.

If the court certifies the case as a class action then you will be a class member. Many people believed that Does II would get them off the registry. We thought that would occur through a negotiated new law, with reasonable duration requirements and a clear path off for those who were low risk. But the legislature rammed through the new law in the lame duck session, and it is almost as bad as the old law. Even the named plaintiffs who came off the registry in Does I (as part of a negotiated judgment) will themselves go back on the registry now under SORA 2021.

This may not be what you want to hear, but I trust it answers your questions. 

Best wishes and good luck.

PDR

“Even the named plaintiffs who came off the registry in Does I (as part of a negotiated judgment) will themselves go back on the registry now under SORA 2021.” Seriously??????????
Just goes to show you how this BS registry continues to F*** people over.

It goes to show how F-ed the legal and justice systems are. So, after Does III, will we see Does IV, Does V and Does VI? It’s a damned merry-go-round.

I am going to go there, this is what we get when we vote Republican. Republicans sponsored this new law and rammed it through their Republican controlled state Congress, packaged with other bills that Democrats support, then dared Governor Whitmer and any Democrats to go on the record opposing the package.

Before anyone says, “both sides do it”, Democrats have been far more open to reform legislation and second chances, while Republican’s consistently take the tough on crime stance and play up mob mentality with fear based tactics about boogie men who might steal our kids away at night.

When we let Republicans control both of our legislative chambers, we have nobody, but ourselves to blame.

@Seth…political affiliations aside, you are factually correct in this instance! The Michigan Democratic Party in the house & senate voted largely against this new amendment and then Whitmer really had no choice given her approval rating on the handling of COVID but to sign it. ANY politician would have done the same in her shoes. This was about political survival for her. Nessel, for all her “support” actually helped the author of this new amendment James Lower to bring it into “constitutionality” by helping model it after the federal Sorna. When push comes to shove there is NO politician regardless of party affiliation who won’t do whatever to save their own skin.

Exactly. It’s the same reason Obama signed IML that was sponsored and pushed through the GOP controlled Congress. Everyone likes to blame Obama for IML without looking at the history of the bill. What was he supposed to do? They had the votes to over-ride his veto anyway.

The bottom line is, if Republicans weren’t controlling Michigan’s Legislature, Whitmer would not had been put in this position. We fought Bill Schuette all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court on the Does suit and some of us voted for him to be Governor. Imagine if he had won.

Research past History and you’ll see Pence helped Pen the original Sora when first enacted.

True… to a point…remember though the judge has the right to determining whether the Final Judgment should be modified or vacated. Court retains jurisdiction to enable any party to this Final Judgment to apply to this Court at any time for further orders and directions as may be necessary or appropriate to carry out or construe this Final Judgment, to modify any of its provisions. It’s a long shot, but quite possible too.

https://all4consolaws.org/2021/06/mi-lawsuit-against-states-sex-offender-registry-act-enters-final-judgment/comment-page-1/#comment-272569

Im a per 2011 my was 2008 and im still held nothing new just the school zone being removed and from what I keep being told is (Kent county) they only doing what the state police are telling them wean talking to the state pd they say something different. As I know Kent will not comply to anything unless its removed.

@I’m Lost…..was there a question in there somewhere? There’s plenty of people here who will give advice or a answer but you got to be a little clearer with your post.

This forum has seriously gone downhill.

Thanks for your note. Quick answers are below. Everything is tied to the fact that the state passed a new SORA (which became effective 3/24/21).

1. The Does II judgment will say that people like you cannot be prosecuted for any SORA compliance violation from 4/12/11 to 3/23/21 because SORA was unconstitutional during that time as applied retroactively to you. Since the statute of limitations is 6 years on such criminal liability, this is good news, as it means any violation for the past 6 years can no longer be prosecuted.

2. You likely are covered by the new law (SORA 2021) and you should have recently gotten a notice in the mail describing it and your new duties under it. The Sixth Circuit ruled that the old law was unconstitutional, but never said that people must come off the registry — unless the state fails to pass a new law that resolves the constitutional defects. The state’s position is that the new law, which is very similar to the federal SORNA and which has mostly been held to be constitutional, now passes constitutional muster.

3. We agree with you that the new law is so like the old law that the courts should still hold it to be unconstitutional. But because the state removed a few of the worst provisions — the school zones, strict liability for any violation (willful or not), the duty to report phones, emails, and cars “routinely” used (whatever that meant) — we could have a harder time persuading a court that the new law, too, rises to the level of punishment.

Nevertheless, we are working up a new global class action challenge to SORA 2021. We are right now gathering expert reports, coming up with new legal claims, and we have recruited the plaintiffs from Does I and Does II to serve as named plaintiffs in Does III. We expect to file the new case in the fall — we were delayed first because we did not want to file Does III until Does II was fully resolved, and because it takes forever to get experts to come on board and to prepare what we need to file the new case.

Our goal is to reduce the time people must serve on the registry, and to tie it to individualized assessment of current risk. We know that most sex offenders will never commit a second offense, and after 10 years most people on the registry pose no higher risk of committing a new sex offense than non-sex offenders are, and indeed most are no higher risk than males in the general population.

If the court certifies the case as a class action then you will be a class member. Many people believed that Does II would get them off the registry. We thought that would occur through a negotiated new law, with reasonable duration requirements and a clear path off for those who were low risk. But the legislature rammed through the new law in the lame duck session, and it is almost as bad as the old law. Even the named plaintiffs who came off the registry in Does I (as part of a negotiated judgment) will themselves go back on the registry now under SORA 2021.

This may not be what you want to hear, but I trust it answers your questions.

Best wishes and good luck

So, I still have not been registering. Are we doing this now or still waiting? I have had police drive behind me not pull me over fwiw, car is in my name.

@Hopeful: I’m not. The official registry site says that as long as the emergency order is in effect—which I believe is until the fall, currently—registration is not enforced. They say it is “voluntary” but I don’t get the impression here that state troopers are eager to do any extra work. I’m waiting until the end of the emergency order and I expect we’ll get some correspondence by then.

You are correct. The Sgt. at the Oak Park MSP post says registration is still voluntary.

I think when we get off the registry there should be a civil lawsuit, so these idiots dont do this again.

This is an excerpt fron Feb 14, 2020…

For the reasons explained above, the court will grant Plaintiffs’ pending motions and will enter permanent injunctive relief on behalf of the ex post facto subclasses and the primary class. Upon the entry of final judgment in this case, Defendants will be permanently enjoined from enforcing any provision of SORA against members of the ex post facto subclasses and will be permanently enjoined from enforcing the provisions described in Part III.B of this opinion against any registrant. The parties will immediately begin efforts to formulate a joint, proposed form of judgment, which will become effective 60 days after entry. The court will include this 60-day window until the judgment becomes effective principally to allow time for the legislature to craft and enact a new statute

Last edited 21 days ago by webmaster

Another excerpt from Feb. 14, 2020….

IT IS ORDERED that Plaintiffs’ motion for declaratory and injunctive relief (ECF No. 62) is GRANTED. Michigan’s SORA is DECLARED NULL AND VOID as applied to members of the ex post facto subclasses (any registrant whose offense requiring them to register, and who has not committed a subsequent offense, occurred prior to April 12, 2011). Defendants and their agents will be ENJOINED from enforcing ANY provision of SORA against members of the ex post facto subclasses.

… this means any pre-2011 is done!

Last edited 21 days ago by Randall Saunders

whats this mean ? the judge rule this today ?

This was ordered Feb, 20. 2020… I can e mail you in its entirety… my Number is 2312465866… that is copied and pasted from the court order

I meant Feb 14, not 20

@Randall……you do know that the state “fixed” the Constitutional issues with the registry. The house & senate passed 5679 and the governor signed it into law affective on March 24th of this year. Your excerpts are a year old and really not relevant anymore. We might get lucky with the entry of final judgement but I don’t think any of us are realistically holding our breath. Prepare yourself to be a subclass of the Does III lawsuit coming soon to a federal district courthouse near you….

The state did NOT fix the constitutional issues!!!!!

@Randall & Dr……it was sarcasm fellas lol…..obviously they didn’t fix a damn thing except for a few minor details but they put Michigan’s SOR largely in tune with the federal Sorna and that’s what the state is banking on….other then this emergency injunction which gave some temporary relief from enforcement & verifications has there ever been a positive development that resulted in mass numbers of registrants being removed from the registry? The answer is NO. Look back through this thread and read the @BobbyS post relaying his conversation with the attorney from the Oliver Group. The ACLU and the Oliver Group are not expecting much from this final judgment and neither should you….just saying

They didn’t fix anything… especially as it applies to us, and the new SORA says nothing about Retroactive application…

This is how I read it… this is an order that should be put into the final judgement, it says “permanent injunctive relief” it also says Michigan’s SORA is NULL AND VOID… and states that it will go into effect 60 days after the final judgemnt… this tells me I am done, and do what you want I am not going to register again, and if they try to charge me I will refer to this…

Last edited 21 days ago by Randall Saunders

You are 100% correct on that in regards to the OLD SORA law and that is what will happen to the OLD law any day now. You are forgetting that there is a whole new law now and a lawsuit hasn’t even begun in challenging it.

That was part of the interim order where the judge ordered that sora could not be enforced during the covid pandemic. It was just a temporary injunction to make the Legislature write a new law.
The amended version that was passed WILL apply to everyone. You can ask any attorney.

does this mean pre 2006 and 2011 are no longer required to register ?

Did something new happen today that I missed??

No it does not mean that. Continue registering as you had been.

Sorry, your wrong, and your a year behind, and way off course.
Because of the 60 day window, that got delayed drastically because of the pandemic. The entry of the final judgement hasn’t occurred yet. Your confusing the judgement briefs with final judgement. They are two different things. The legislators went ahead and passed a new revised Sora in a lame duck session while the appeals court was hold hold due to pandemic.

There is a final judgement coming any time of the case. He could uphold the ex post facto, but then he might not. Go back and re read the does I and two cases. The parties agreed that 2006 revision was unconstitutional, but did not agree on 2011 one. The got over looked in debate, 2011 amendments ,The plaintiff’s didn’t address this thoroughly. They did 2006, And Legislation took it upon themselves to leave it intact ( 2011 amendments) when revising the new sora.

At the hearing, the parties agreed that the 2006 amendments were severable.
The court’s analysis like the parties’ briefs will focus on the severability of the 2011 amendments because if the 2011 amendments cannot be severedSORA cannot apply to any members of the ex post facto subclassesincluding registrants whose crimes subjecting them to registration were committed before the enactment of the 2006 amendments.
See infra
Part IV.
A.3.

Upon the entry of final judgment in this case, Defendants will be
permanently enjoined from enforcing any provision of SORA against members of the ex post facto subclasses and will be permanently enjoined from enforcing the provisions described in Part III.B of this opinion against any
registrant. ( this is if his final opinion is upheld and signed as final entry.)
.
( Important Note here).. 1) That was not final judgement, it’s was the judges opinion towards final judgement entry. Upon entry … means it hasn’t yet been entered by final judgement ..Yet. The state can do what ever it likes until that entry.

Mr Ed , Do you believe the judge will rule that pre 2006 will be removed from the registry in his final judgment ?

That’s definitely not going to happen.

That is what was ordered by the judge, it is not the final judgement, but it was the judges order… I appreciate your opinion… but that is court order, and the state of Michigan can kiss my a*s!

Michigan has too many other political issues right now to bother with what I am sure is a perfectly nice a*s to kiss! (Hopefully sarcasm recognized😎)

Mr. Ed when do you think the final judgement will be handed down

Right now I have no Idea when…..Not sure what the hold up is. But I’ll have to look into some things and find out.
Anything could happen, and then nothing could happen….It’s a tough ball game.

Google “sex offender protests courthouse”, and you will see how far I am willing go to defend myself… right down to public humiliation… and now that I am warrant free… nationwide… I can and will do it again…

And what did judge Clealand say if they didn’t bring it into compliance?
If my memory serves me ,,,,,,,,
o People whose offenses occurred before April 12, 2011, cannot be subjected to the 2011 amendments, ( which retroactively extended many individuals’ registration terms to life,) classified registrants by tiers, and imposed extensive reporting requirements.

So Congress has NOT done what was ordered .
Apparently congress cannot separate the unconstitutional parts of sora from sora? Just as the aclu pointed out so long ago,,,,,

What happens when you don’t comply with a judge’s order?

The judge indicated that if the old SORA law is not brought into compliance with the 6th’s opinion, he would make the changes himself and likely shutdown the old SORA. They didn’t make the required changes, so he is going to shut down the old law. He already said that a new lawsuit will need to be filed on the new law.

@Seth,
can you please point me to where judge Cleland said, he would make the changes himself?

It’s well known that his pre-COVID order gave the state 60 days to make the changes. If they failed to do this, he would decide himself whether to enjoin enforcement of the law in it’s entirety or to enjoin enforcing parts of it. That is the whole reason why ACLU wanted to work with the state legislators to make the changes, because they were concerned that Judge Cleland would miss the mark if it fell on his hands and that would set us way back.

A judge cannot make changes to a law. It violates the Separation of Powers act. Only the Legislative branch can amend and enact laws. It’s the judicial branch’s authority to interpret the law only, therefore, Judge Cleland CANNOT make any changes to the sora law because he lacks authority to do so.
When he said he would shut down sora, it meant that the Michigan Legislature was ordered to make changes to it, and if they failed to do so, he would declare sora null and void and unenforceable. To clarify also, its not really the “old law”, but rather the same law that has been amended.
With the new amended version, Judge Cleland cannot make any rulings on it as to whether or not its constitutional because technically, the Legislature did make changes to it. In order for him or another judge to make any rulings on it now, a new class action must be brought to challenge it, which the ACLU has stated they intend to do probably this fall.
Unfortunately, Judge Cleland’s upcoming final order will do little more than close the case for good.

I am pretty sure Judge Cleland has to uphold the 6th Circuit’s Opinion regarding the registrants Ex Post Facto issues. It was why it went to the 6th Circuit to begin with, because Judge Cleland ruled the 2011 amendments could be applied retroactively the 6th said no the 2006 & 2011 amendments cannot be. So,it was appealed to the Supreme Court they would not take it up so the 6th’s decision must be followed. Judge Cleland cannot overrule the higher court when it comes to anyone having to register prior to 2006.

Ummm not true, re-read the court arguments pertaining to does one and II…. I copied it here…

 Go back and re read the does I and two cases. The parties agreed that 2006 revision was unconstitutional, but did not agree on 2011 one. That got over looked in debate, 2011 amendments ,The plaintiff’s didn’t address this thoroughly. They did 2006, And Legislation took it upon themselves to leave it intact ( 2011 amendments) when revising the new sora.
At the hearing, the parties agreed that the 2006 amendments were severable.
The court’s analysis like the parties’ briefs will focus on the severability of the 2011 amendments because if the 2011 amendments cannot be severedSORA cannot apply to any members of the ex post facto subclassesincluding registrants whose crimes subjecting them to registration were committed before the enactment of the 2006 amendments.
See infra
Part IV.
A.3.

@dim,
Maybe this will help!

What Exactly Did the Court of Appeals Decide?

In a unanimous opinion, the Court of Appeals decided that retroactively imposing punishment without individual risk assessment or due process violates the Constitution. The court noted that the 2006 and 2011 SORA amendments added geographic exclusion zones, imposed strict new reporting requirements, and extended registration up to life for the vast majority of registrants, without providing any review or appeal (with rare exceptions). The court found SORA to be more like criminal probation or parole than like a civil regulation.

Last edited 19 days ago by Dr.

I would like to know why did it get to cleland if the appeals court is higher.

@Sheldon,. I think a lesson on appellate courts is in order. An appellate court (supreme court is an appellate court too it’s just the highest one) doesn’t issue orders. It only issues opinions. When something goes to an appeals court it is either affirmed, reversed, remanded, or a combination of two or even all three. The trial court then must act accordingly on the appellate court decision making appropriate changes to their original decision as necessary in order to be consistent with the appellate court. Even when something is affirmed there are often proceedings that occur before the order is final. So the trial court Judge (Cleland in this case) is still the one that issues the final order. The order must be consistent with the appellate decision.

@mc thanks the info

Does anyone know if there is any update this week regarding sora? I thought that July 12th was a date of significance where we might get new info..

July 12 was the date the parties had to file briefs stating what they think the final order should contain. After the judge reviews those, he’ll issue his final order. It could be any day, but I assume it will be within a week or two.

According to Pacer, both sides agreed on a extension until July 19th

@Josh, Do you have any idea why both sides keep dragging this crap on and on and on. It almost sounds like neither side wants change, this bull should of been over years ago. Just saying.

@BobbyS…..I don’t know bud. Your guess is as good as mine. My lawyer brought the extension to my attention. The opinion that was expressed by my lawyer is that they can’t come to terms on the language of the final judgement thus the extension. If they’re still arguing then maybe there is a outside chance the state can piss off Judge Cleland one more time….I’m still not expecting much

You definitely do not want to piss Cleland off.

I don’t think the ACLU side is really dragging things on. There’s a lot of pieces and a lot of strategy involved in trying to get a desired result much of which isn’t just happening in a court. These attorneys know what they’re doing. I know it’s never fast enough but that’s the way it works.

If anyone wants to dig deeper,
Wasn’t the state ordered to turn over the files from the process used on registry to the aclu ? Or something like that?
In order to work together (as the judge ordered)
If that is true I would think it might take a minute…

Yes, the State is supposed to turn over the names and contact information of everyone on the hit list. I believe its so everyone can be directly informed of what the final order contains. I think its also so the ACLU will know who is pre 2011 and 2006.

I might add that will also show pre sora

The ACLU and lawyers are not dragging, they are getting their strategy together…. quietly. They won’t post anywhere of what they are doing, no need to give tools for defense to use and pick apart.

And trust me, defense (state) has eyes on all these posts we make, I guarantee you that. Be smart be wise.

Those were briefs , it is possible we’ll hear something by mid to end of September.

@Mr Ed….How did something SO important as the 2011 amendment get “overlooked”? That seems like incompetence at it’s very best. The 25 year to LIFE is far & away the biggest injustice served up against us. It’s the ONLY issue that matters to me anymore. After 25 years there isn’t much more damage that can be inflicted in terms of my reputation.

@Josh, I totally agree with you, my original 25 years was up 6-19-20. This is just bull crap and they are taking their sweet ass time. I don’t even think they are focusing on the 2011 amendment anyone. Remember when they were trying to get EVERYONE of the registry, instead of focusing on getting pre- 2006 and 2011 removed first. It’s NOT about post pre- sorna people right now, sorry to say, it’s about ALL us pre- sorna people first and foremost in my opinion. Also did any one else receive an email from Tim at the ACLU today.

Guys…..Let’s clear that up…

In that last order before pandemic hit Cleland also addressed and stated in writing below…. Cleland wrote.>>>

“To be clear:
SORA will not become unenforceable as of the date of this order. Rather,
the holdings in this opinion will become effective and enforceable only after the entry of a final judgment , at the time specified in that final judgment….”

This means sora was and remains enforceable to this day in some ways to a point, and state moved quickly to revise the new sora revision, leaving intact most of it anyway. Because of pandemic, this final order entry was delayed for over a year.

Any word from Judge cleeland today?

So here we all wait I bet you they keep kicking the can down the road they are not willing to let us off this registry this battle been going on for years not just that but I always thought the term life was 25 years and natural life was till the day you die in a court of law I am sure the out come will be we will still be stuck on this registry sorry I have no faith in this corrupt state politicians should be locked up for violating the oath of the constitution and breaking laws same with any law enforcement agency that fallow them knowing it violates people’s rights they should be accountable accessory to unjust laws that’s how I feel about it sorry just bitter about all this bs!!!!!!

For all I care, they can keep delaying it and kicking the can because we’re not getting anything all that great. All we got was the elimination of school zones. Big freaking deal. One of the main points of the suit was the ex post facto application of the 2011 amendment changing 25 to life, and the legislature totally ignored that when ordered to make changes.
The only ones coming off the registry are juveniles who had their records expunged. The rest of us get to eat a s*** sandwich.

That’s because it got over looked and not agreed on. Was argued not severable. So yea, that got included in revised sora.

Do you also know that the defense (state)has eyes on all ACLU sites and the affiliates… they are trying to get a handle on what kind of personalities still persist in the people listed on the registry, and to all those making nasty comments, your just giving state ammo. Be smart, be wise. And we’ll succeed in beating this.

The “state” is watching? Good, because I have a message for them – go f*** yourselves, your spouses, your children, and your whole families. Not just the “state”, but any person and their families who thinks the Oppression Lists are acceptable.

What I have seen firsthand (so I don’t have to worry about their lies) is that they can pass whatever harassment “laws” that they like and I will ensure that they are not just worthless, but that they do everything the opposite of what they intend. I will also retaliate for them and cause widespread damage. All legally. Cause widespread damage, just like they do. They don’t know that though they because they are clueless, have no grasp of reality, and have no concern for the actual effects of their “laws”.

They want to “get a handle on what kind of personalities still persist in the people listed on the registry”? Are they stupid? What do they expect? The Oppression Lists have made enemies. They have radicalized people. They have made them hate and distrust people. They would already know that if they cared.

And is this a personality contest or something? They want to see that PFRs are super nice to everyone, remorseful, deferential, and respectful of “laws”? Hilarious. The ONLY thing of which there can be any legitimate concern is if a person should remain listed on the Oppression Lists because it will reduce the chance that he/she will commit a SEX crime. That is the ONLY legitimate thing that can matter. Obviously nothing else is important or we’d have Registries for it.

If they actually cared about public safety, protecting children, or any of their other lies, they would’ve destroyed the Lists over a decade ago. But they don’t care.

I couldn’t agree with you more, Will. I’m not going to lay down and lick my n**s. Its not a popularity contest and I have no intention of being nice to the State. Even when I go verify I try to be as much of an a-hole as possible because they can’t do a thing about it. If the person taking my info is being nice to me, I’m a little less of an a-hole to them, but not by much.
I would love to hear some suggestions from you about how to do some legal retaliation and damage.

Maybe I should write a book about how to cause tyrannical, authoritarian regimes constant problems? There are probably a number of such books already available.

I tend to ramble. I don’t have time for that right now or even feel like it, lol! So I’ll be short.

Personally, I’ve found the most satisfying retaliation by far has been to cost them a lot of extra time, money, and effort. You can do that by owning businesses that they depend on. If you have money, that is not hard to do. Fortunately, when I first started to get harassed because of the Oppression Lists, decades ago, I decided that it was an economic war. I felt if I was a lot wealthier than anyone else, I would win. I still feel that way. And not because money makes you happy, better, or whatever, but because it allows you to do *things* and control people’s lives. I am the one in control.

So that is the way that I feel the best retaliation can be done – you get in bed with the devil. Keep your enemies close and work them over.

Beyond that, I’d say just treat it as a job or serious hobby. It is easy for a person to just sit back and complain about the Oppression Lists and never do anything. That is so easy. But is that what you want?

Life is long. The way I’ve seen the Lists function is that day in and day out, they do nothing useful for society. But any time that I feel like it, I can retaliate for them. Society gets nothing. But I get years and years and years to make them pay. Who wants a lifelong enemy? Kind of funny really.

Anyway, I’ve found local groups where I live that work over government and even more that do it with law enforcement. Align yourself with their enemies and help. Every time they step out of line, the group is there to take advantage of it. In reality, that is a good community service, but they hate it.

Beyond that, I cause chaos at every opportunity. There is always some level of chaos going on anyway and you can get a lot of tools and help with amplifying that. Take a look at how the country has been the last few years. There are piles of people who are working to create it like that. Apparently Russia and others like to do that. But I think there is more coming from within America than from outside.

Lastly, stay involved in politics. I’ve had great luck/success in getting rid of bad sheriffs, mayors, and such. If someone is causing trouble, help get rid of them.

I could go into lots of specific details but Will Allen can’t. When a person sees the retaliation it does not appear related to the Oppression Lists and it does not appear connected. It works well that way. I’m happy with the results but I’m always looking for more ways to retaliate. Almost every day.

I just read the email from intern,
Line 6 , and the next paragraph under it,,,,,,
That just left me confused?

Could you or someone else post the email here? I didn’t get one.

@Disgusted in Michigan,.
Today

Intern
1 message
No attachment
4:02 PM
Up date needed
First, we have no updates from the court, and we are now being told that it may take a few weeks. I do not know why but we must live with any timetable the court sets. Some of you have contacted me in the past and told me that you in the last few weeks went to your local Police Agency and said that the Local Police Dept. or Sheriff’s Department is no longer doing SOR Registrations. I would like to hear again from only those people who have been told that have been told this information. I need all the following information: What Department told you that:When were you told that information? How far will you now have to travel to report, in both time and miles:Was this a permanent thing or was it just temporary?And if you have it the phone number and name of the person you talked to at that Department:Also, if you have been able to Register, please give us the name of the Department you were able to register at and the date: Please do not send me information if your Department is registering. Respectfully Tim P ACLU of Michigan SOR Specialist Disclaimer: I’m not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. The information in this email is provided for general informational purposes only. No information contained in this email should be construed as legal advice from me or ACLU of Michigan nor is it intended to be a substitute for legal counsel on any subject matter. No reader of this email should act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included in, or accessible through, this email without seeking the appropriate legal or other professional advice on the particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer licensed in the State of Michigan, or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction.

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Up date needed

Intern
To
Intern
Jul 22 at 4:02 PM
First, we have no updates from the court, and we are now being told that it may take a few weeks. I do not know why but we must live with any timetable the court sets.

Some of you have contacted me in the past and told me that you in the last few weeks went to your local Police Agency and said that the Local Police Dept. or Sheriff’s Department is no longer doing SOR Registrations. I would like to hear again from only those people who have been told that have been told this information. I need all the following information:
What Department told you that:
When were you told that information?
How far will you now have to travel to report, in both time and miles:
Was this a permanent thing or was it just temporary?
And if you have it the phone number and name of the person you talked to at that Department:
Also, if you have been able to Register, please give us the name of the Department you were able to register at and the date:
Please do not send me information if your Department is registering.

Respectfully Tim P ACLU of Michigan SOR Specialist

@Disgusted in Michigan, sorry bi don’t know why it pasted all that crap. Hopefully this is more helpful.
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Up date needed

Intern
To
Intern
Jul 22 at 4:02 PM
First, we have no updates from the court, and we are now being told that it may take a few weeks. I do not know why but we must live with any timetable the court sets.

Some of you have contacted me in the past and told me that you in the last few weeks went to your local Police Agency and said that the Local Police Dept. or Sheriff’s Department is no longer doing SOR Registrations. I would like to hear again from only those people who have been told that have been told this information. I need all the following information:
What Department told you that:
When were you told that information?
How far will you now have to travel to report, in both time and miles:
Was this a permanent thing or was it just temporary?
And if you have it the phone number and name of the person you talked to at that Department:
Also, if you have been able to Register, please give us the name of the Department you were able to register at and the date:
Please do not send me information if your Department is registering.

Respectfully Tim P ACLU of Michigan SOR Specialist

I’ll give the interns a minute,,,, to correct any misprints before throwing them to the wolves,

I don’t believe the pre – sora was overlooked, I might offer the state ( elephant type legislature) didn’t want to budge on us and left it up to the judge,
The legislature never did work with the plaintiff until after a new amended law was in place….
Not what was ordered!!!!!!
I believe the court will see this along with several of FOPA’s the defendants are trying to slip by,,,,

Yes, I read it .

DR… What do you think about the statement were they said that the new sora cannot be applied retroactively…

I posted this at the top of this topic and I stand by it,,,,
I might add the honorable judge Cleland, I believe said this has gone on long enough. That was over a year ago, the defendants did not do what was ordered!!!!!!!

 Reply
Dr.
 Reply to  Disgusted in Michigan
 June 22, 2021 12:50 pm

And what did he say if they didn’t bring it into compliance?
If my memory serves me ,,,,,,,,
o People whose offenses occurred before April 12, 2011, cannot be subjected to the 2011 amendments, ( which retroactively extended many individuals’ registration terms to life,) classified registrants by tiers, and imposed extensive reporting requirements.
So Congress has NOT done what was ordered .
Apparently congress cannot separate the unconstitutional parts of sora from sora? Just as the aclu pointed out so long ago,,,,,
What happens when you don’t comply with a judge’s order?
Last edited 1 month ago by Dr.

And for extra credit read the Temelkoski vs. state of Michigan,,,,,, aclu has been waiting sense 2016 ? Great case just no movement

@Dr….LOL! I forward all those emails to my attorney and I said the exact same thing…..that guy seems to like to make more work for himself. You’ll likely get at least one correction email today from him…

I got a reply just now,
This is MY takeaway , IF you were turned away from registration in the last couple weeks the intern would like to have the 4 w’s of that experience .

As,I am a person who all sorts of case law because I was wanting to be a attorney before I was stupid.
This reads to me as ALL PRE-2011 registrants Don’t Need To Register because SORA was deemed unconstitutional .

Don’t give up being an Attorney!

Since Judge Cleland was supposed to write the final order in this case on Monday, July 19, 2021, what was his decision and how has it changed anything at this point? Has it even been published for public access yet?
I have tons of questions but no definitive answers.

@ me and everyone else,
Can you point me to where judge Cleland is supposed to write the final order on the nineteenth?

The last I knew the defendants and plaintiffs were to hand in their homework on the 19th,
Then after the judge reviews that paperwork, he will rule, then 60 days after that his ruling will take effect, unless something changes,,,

He was not obligated to issue it on July 19. That was the deadline for the parties to file their briefs outlining what should be included in the final order. The parties filed for an extension and it was granted.
No final order has been issued yet.

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