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General News

International Travel 2019

We have updated our main International Travel section. It features:

  1. List of Schengen Nations (allowing entry to registrants);
  2. Resources (including a CA DOJ Travel Notification Form); and
  3. User Submitted Travel Reports.

This post is linked from the Main Menu at the top of the site.

1. The 26 Schengen Nations (which allow registrants to visit)

As an agreement, Schengen was signed among the five out of ten countries of the European Union members back then, on the 14th June 1985. Under the Schengen agreement, travelling from one Schengen country to another is done without any passport and immigration controls or any other formalities previously required.

[row] [column size=”1/5″ center=”no” class=””]

Austria
Belgium
Czech republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland

[/column][column size=”1/5″ center=”no” class=””]

France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland

[/column][column size=”1/5″ center=”no” class=””]

Italy
Latvia
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg

[/column] [column size=”1/5″ center=”no” class=””]

Malta
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal

[/column] [column size=”1/5″ center=”no” class=””]

Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland

[/column] [/row]

Note: US Citizens are visa exempt when visiting the Schengen area for up to 90 days in a 180 day period (List of Countries, Section B or map).  The European Commission is proposing creating a European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS) for such travelers, beginning in 2021 – which may or may not take criminal convictions into account. ETIAS Fact Sheet April 2018July 2018

2. Resources

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Forms

Publications

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Old Posts

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3. NEW: User Submitted Travel Reports

If you have traveled internationally post-IML we invite you to share your travel experience on the form below. Submissions will be published as a separate post with opportunity for targeted / country specific discussion.

If you have already filled out our previous (unpublished) travel form, please do so again here for publication.

Report your Travel Experience:

[formidable id=2]

Join the discussion

  1. David

    ✈️🗼🎉 Well, here’s some cheery news: ETIAS maybe delayed!

    https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/etias-launch-may-be-delayed-until-introduction-of-ees/

  2. James

    On the new passports that have the sex offender marking, are the passports still good for 10 years? The fee is the same as a “normal” passport, so they should also be valid for the same number of years.

    • Mrv

      Good for only 1 year

      • TS

        @Mrv

        Share your source because others here stated it’s for ten years with their marked passports.

      • Carey

        Emergency Passports that are applied for in U.S. Embassies are the ONLY ones that are good for only a year!

    • JM from wi

      Mine is Good for 10 years

    • David

      My new “marked” U.S. Passport, issues in June 2019, is good for 10 years.

    • Paul Rigney

      Good for 10 years

      Paul
      214-624-2552

      • Daniel

        I applied for and received my new passport in November ’19. I can’t for the life of me see a noticeable marking or differentiate it from my wife’s. Is it only visible under a blacklight? Can anyone confirm?

        • M C

          It’s printed on the back cover and if you look you can’t miss it. I just got a new passport as well and also received a passport card. Passport is unmarked but I’m not a registrant in my non-sorna state anymore either. Not sure what notices would be sent on me if I traveled either.

        • Carey

          Yours does not have a mark. Level One, and CP offenders will not have one!

        • Michael

          @carey … Where did you read / find out that CP offenses will not have a mark in their passport?

  3. David

    I’d like to suggest to my fellow international travelers with “marked” U.S. passports, that EACH TIME you return from a trip abroad, you submit a FOIA Request to the U.S. Marshals Service asking for any information that was sent to the foreign country ABOUT you FROM the U.S. government.
    A FOIA Request is pretty easy to write and submit. It can be done online via email.
    You should know what our government is saying to other countries about you.

    (Besides, I am not going to make this easy for them: If they are going to blast out a “green notice” about me, then I am going to bog them down with a FOIA request that they are required to answer.)

    • Janice Bellucci

      @ David – While it is possible to submit a FOIA request for information related to your overseas travel, submitting the same request under the Privacy Act would be more effective and could cost significantly less. Why? FOIA allows the government to charge “search fees” to those who submit requests under that act, however, the Privacy Act only allows the government to charge “copy fees” for documents they find as the result of your request.

      • AA

        Janice,

        Would it be possible for you to type out a form letter for all of us to use? Leave it on the website someplace. Something we could just change the particulars on and send it to them. That would be a huge help for us all.

    • Paul Rigney

      Excellent idea

  4. Ruben Herrera

    What if I wanted to travel to Guatemala (my uncle informed me that the country doesn’t care about the registration, but I don’t know if he is well informed about it or not). Colombia, Salvador, Honduras, anyone?

    • Don’t tread on me

      Guatemala and Honduras both are open. They are the only two left of central/South America we can get into. Not many vacations spots left in this part of the world. They are not very safe on the mainland but the islands are fine. Check out Roatan.

      Funny…..I don’t feel like a predator

    • David

      @ Ruben: For country specific information, check this website:

      http://www.registranttag.org/resources/travel-matrix

      ✈️✈️✈️

  5. Mike G

    We just returned yesterday from a 15 day Central America cruise. We spent one day in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, one day in La Crucecita, Ocxaca, Mexico, one day in Antigua, Guatemala, one day in Leon, Nicaragua, one day in San Jose, Costa Rica, one day transiting the Panama Canal, and one day in Willemstad, Curacao.

    The cruise line check-in counter scanned our passports before they let us on the ship. The next time anyone looked at our passports was at U.S. Customs in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, where we disembarked. Naturally, we were sent to Secondary, but it was fairly painless. All they did was x-ray all our luggage and carry-ons. We picked up our stuff, and they wished us Merry Christmas on the way out.

    • Daniel

      Thats amazing I have never heard anyone being allowed in Mexico let alone a cruise. Could you please answer a few questions? One being did you report your travel to the Police before going on the cruise?
      Also which cruise line did you go on? I hear a lot of them do not allow sex offenders.

      Any details in regards to the trip and informing and dealing with the authorities would be great.

      Congrats on being able to go!

      • Will Allen

        Do you mean sex offenders or Registered People? Sex offenders should not be allowed on any cruise. They should all be in prison.

        Only corrupt, criminal regimes have $EX Offender Registries.

        • Joseph

          @ Will Allen

          Most of us WERE in prison and we have served our time… Hints the freedom to obtain a passport and travel as long as we let law enforcement know. If you are so afraid of us, how about you get your silly self off of this site and far away from us the same way you want us to get far away from you… That simple….

        • Don’t tread on me

          @Joseph
          I think you are missing Will’s point. He is as indignant and radical as anyone I’ve seen on here. His point is we were sex offenders once in our life. That doesn’t make us sex offenders forever. We are registered citizens nothing more and nothing less. Registries are an illegal and unconstitutional scheme by our government. Sex offenders do not belong on cruises. Registered citizens should be allowed as 97% of us will never reoffend.

        • Will Allen

          @Don’t tread on me:

          Exactly, thank you for responding.

          A “sex offender” is a person who is committing sex offenses. Just like a “liar” is someone who is lying, a “bank robber” is someone who is robbing banks, and a “police officer” is a cop.

          The out-of-control nanny big governments (NBGs) all throughout the U.S. have lied and lied and weaponized the term “sex offender”. Therefore, I don’t think any decent American should EVER use that term. Not ever. When you say “sex offender” you are legitimizing and reinforcing the $EX Offender Registries ($ORs) and their harassment. You are confirming that there is a group of people that we can all call “sex offenders” and apply special “laws” and harassment upon.

          People who are listed on the NBG $ORs certainly are not “sex offenders”. They are nothing but people who are listed on an NBG hit list. They are targets, that’s it. I refer to a listed person as a “Person Forced to Register”, a PFR. I also kind of like “Person Registered for Punishments, Restrictions, and Harassment”, but some don’t.

          Message to Registry Nazis: Sic semper tyrannis. “Let’s see how you like it when the fighting is brought to you.”

    • AA

      @Mike G,

      You were allowed off the ship at every port?

    • Malik

      Thanks David, what Cruise Line? And did you have your original Passport or a marked one?
      I used my birth cert one a cruise to the bahamas, I didnt even want to show my passport. I did get sent to secondary when I got back to the US
      Thanks

  6. Mike G

    Re: 15 Day Cruise

    I really worry about whether ICE, State Department, Customs, Satan Watch, etc. monitor this webpage, but what the heck – if I don’t share, no one can benefit from my experience, at least until the US Government takes more drastic steps to stop us from entering anywhere.

    1) I did give a 21-day notice to my registering agency. I did list all the countries that I would be visiting, and I don’t know if Satan Watch tried to send them notice that I was coming, but I don’t know logistically how that would have worked. They would have had to know what ship I was on, and what date I would reach their country. I did not include that information in my notice, so someone would have had to do an investigation to figure out where I would be and when.

    2) I do have a marked passport, and I was traveling with my wife. We were celebrating our 42nd anniversary with this cruise.

    3) The cruise line was Holland America Cruise Lines, and let me say right off, the ship’s crew was excellent and very friendly, food was excellent, and I could spend an hour listing all the little perks that were included on the cruise. It was our 8th cruise, and I think it was the best so far.

    4) I have read posts, though none recently, about RCs being turned away from Royal Caribbean and Carnival cruise lines. Note that Carnival and Holland America have the same ownership. Holland scanned my passport, and nothing happened. They did not look in the back of my passport to see if there was a mark. Either my status didn’t show up on their system, or they didn’t care, but they didn’t look at my results on their computer screen any longer than they looked at my wife’s.

    5) In each port, we just walked off the ship into the local economy. There was no security, no checking of any kind. I didn’t even take my passport off the ship – it stayed in my cabin the entire cruise. The only thing I took with me was my ship card, which was scanned when I left the ship, and scanned when I re-boarded. The ship just needs to know if everyone who left the ship is back on before it sails away.

    6) When I left the ship for the last time, the scan of my card set off an alarm message on their screen. The scanning person called over to a nearby ship security person said “I have 2735” and he looked at his clipboard where our cabin number was listed, and marked it off (I noticed that there were 4 cabin numbers on his clipboard list). He told us that we get to go with him, and he escorted us past the rest of the waiting line to pick up our luggage, and took us right to the customs officer. While we walked, he asked us how we enjoyed the cruise, and when he dropped us at customs, he wished us Merry Christmas. To other waiting passengers, it almost looked like we got celebrity treatment. The customs officer scanned both our passports and told us to go into a nearby room. The officer in that room asked if my registration was current. He asked if I had a card showing that, so I told him that my registering agency no longer gives out cards. He said, okay, give me your address. Apparently he was able to look me up on his system by using my address. He then said, lets run your stuff through the x-ray machine, and then you can go. So we fed all our carry-on stuff and suitcases through the x-ray machine. After everything came out, he said “Merry Christmas and enjoy the rest of your trip”. There was no discussion about cell phones (mine was in my shirt pocket the whole time), cameras, laptops, nor anything else. We actually ended up outside ahead of some other passengers that were originally in line in front of us.

    7) I really hope that any of you who are able can take a similar cruise before they crack down on us further.

    • Jp

      @Mike G,
      Thank you for giving us the great updates! Was wondering if i buy the cruise tickets and then they cancel it if they find out something about my husband, will they refund the money? I have read how people get their tickets canceled before going so my husband and I have never tried.
      Merry Xmas

      • Mike G

        @Jp

        This may be a question better answered by Stan, who posted below.

        I have probably read the same posts as you. I seem to recall one case where the cruise line refunded both husband and wife after cancelling their booking, but I seem to recall another case where the cruise line was only going to refund the husband, and not the wife and kids. I believe that became a legal battle involving lawyers, but that the cruise line eventually refunded the whole family.

        Stan states that Royal Caribbean, Celebrity, Azamara, and Carnival are no go, but the others are okay so far. We have cruised with Norwegian, MSC, and now Holland, within the last year with no problems. Unfortunately, that could all change in an instant if there was some incident on some ship somewhere that became public.

        And Merry Christmas to you and your family too!

  7. Stan

    I sell cruises for a living. I have been barred from the Royal Caribbean family (including Celebrity and Azamara) and Carnival. Although Carnival owns seven other labels, I have not had any trouble with any of the others, nor Norwegian Cruise Lines. And my passport, issued last March, is good for 10 years, and you’d really have to be searching for it to find the notice. No one like a cruise check-in person

  8. Stan

    I sell cruises for a living. I am barred from the Royal Caribbean family (includes Celebrity and Azamara) and from Carnival, though not their other 8 labels. They operate relatively independently. I am also okay on Norwegian Cruise Lines. I have never been aware of a passenger being barred from visiting any listed port. I certainly have cruised to Mexico numerous times.

    Here’s a little item to watch out for: If you are traveling to Europe on British Air, they sometimes swap your airports in London. IE, you fly to Heathrow (LHR) and continue to the continent from Gatwick (LGW). Turns out, you technically need to “enter” the country to continue your flight. My partner and I were kept in a prison overnight, and had out bags examined five different times. On the other hand, if you are switching flights at LHR (the larger airport), you never technically enter the country, though I always breath a sigh of relief when I board the outbound plane.

    My “notification” passport was issued in March, and it’s valid for 10 years.

    • David

      A couple years ago, without thinking, I purchased a non-refundable airline ticket to France on Aerolingus. Then I realized I would be changing planes at Dublin airport. I contacted the Irish Embassy and the head of Border patrol at Dublin Airport, but the best answer I could get was, “Your entry into Ireland – even just to change planes – cannot be guaranteed. It is, ultimately, the decision of whichever officer processes your arrival.”.
      So I forfeited that ticket and purchased a direct flight on a different airline.
      We live & learn. 😏

    • Mike G

      @Stan

      Thanks a lot for your inside information on the cruise industry. You confirm what I had heard about Carnival and Royal Caribbean, and now I know not to attempt Celebrity and Azamara. Did you find out you were barred strictly by booking and then they contacted you to cancel your booking, or have you found any information directly from the cruise companies that says we won’t be allowed to sail? Were you ever denied boarding when you showed up at the ship for embarkation? Any idea why the other Carnival labels are different from the “parent” company?

      We cruised twice on Royal Caribbean and twice on Carnival, but apparently that was before they enacted their restrictions. We also changed planes successfully at Heathrow, but I figured that if we made a right turn into Customs instead of the left turn to the Transfer area, I would be in trouble. Strangely, when we changed planes in Toronto, they let me walk right into the terminal where I could have walked out the front door and caught a taxi to downtown. Probably some one screwed up.

      Interestingly, on Holland America’s website it basically said don’t even think of booking one of our Alaskan cruises which stop in Canada if you have any kind of criminal conviction. You can’t just stay on the ship. Canada considers any ship in one of their ports to be “in Canada”, and they will come and get you if they know you are there.

    • BA

      Stan,
      This jack met you at last 2 conferences, have you ever taken a cruise to asia on norwegian (specifically Singapore. is it possible to get in the country of the cruise? Can we even think about Singapore at this point?

      • Count D.I.K.ula

        “Can we even think about Singapore at this point?”

        I do not think that we can think about S’pore at all. They are bound to check passports of entering cruise ships every bit as carefully as they do those entering through Changi Airport. It is a highly efficient and technically advanced and PARANOID country that takes immigration very seriously.

    • kim

      You mention getting off the ship in Mexico without problem. Was that a recent rip? I’m cruising Norwegian next week to Cabo and wondering if i should get off the ship. Thanks for your insight.

  9. R M

    I’ve been watching Santa as he travels the globe this special night.
    He’s made his way across most of the Earth dropping presents for all to cheer.

    DHS checked his passport, he’s all clear,
    No drugs, no guns, no virgin girl,
    Not even a peak of those who hurl.
    In a few, he’ll stop in Cali,
    Not quite sure of who’s to fame.
    As of now, he’s across the North,
    Wondering why he’s playing this game.
    Rudolf, Rudolf,
    Go faster boy!
    The boys of USA are tiring fast.,
    Back up, back up Santa, woah.
    Santa, our packs are quite empty,
    Have some coal for those who need dough,
    District of Columbia awaits a fire.
    Rudolf, Rudolf, watch that nose…..

    • R M

      What? No one liked my poem? It’s the best I could do considering our fight.

      • Mike G

        Hey, I just read it, and I like it! We are all a bit hindered by being in the fight…

  10. Finally Retired

    Dear moderator – I posted previously but in the wrong place. I didn’t mean to “reply” to anyone. I wanted to start a fresh thread. Thanks very much!

    Hello everyone,

    I’d like to visit Spain next year. Wondering where I’d provide my IML Notice – Florida (where I’m listed without any update in 24 years) or Maryland where I’ve been a lifelong resident but never had to register (not a covered offense in my home state of Maryland).

    My offense involved a minor back in ‘96, adjudication withheld, 2 years probation I did in Maryland. Non-Contact. I’ll be petitioning for removal in a couple of years..

    I don’t even have a passport yet but I’m pretty sure I’ll get a marked one because I’m on the Florida registry (and thus the national). The IML website says that notification should be made to the ‘local registry office”. Seems to me that would be in my Maryland county, but what if they say they don’t want to get involved?

    Thanks very much for any input,

    • TS

      @Finally retired

      In Florida you report it to your registering agency using standard travel data which you can find at the SORNA website and to your local cop shop of one sort or another. The same would be for Maryland even if they don’t want to get involved. As we discussed here, you need to make the effort and keep a record of you showing to make the effort in giving your travel data.

      • Finally Retired

        So in my case I should report my travel plans (using the SORNA form) to my Maryland registering office even though I’m not registered in Maryland for the florida Charge. I should keep some proof that I tried (like jotting down the name of the person I presented the SORNA form to)..

        If they refuse to process the form per IML, well i tried to comply. I just want to avoid getting cited for noncompliance, most especially since it won’t be too long before I can petition in Florida to come off. Thanks very much TS!

        • Mike G

          @Finally Retired

          There is a link to the form at the top of this page. It says CA-DOJ but it is generic.

        • David

          @ Finally Retired: Believe me, I am not trying to ruin the holiday for you. But I am confused by something you wrote. I don’t think anyone is ever removed from Florida’s Registry – even if they move out of state or even if they die, the name remains on Florida’s Registry. (There are a couple lawsuits attempting to change this, but right now, there’s no way off it. I know – my conviction was also in Florida. Though I have not lived there for nearly 20 years, my name remains on the state’s Registry. 😒)

        • Finally Retired

          @David: After 25 years from end of probation and with no arrests of any type anywhere you can petition to be removed in Florida.

        • TS

          @Finally Retired

          It is a bit more than just noting the name of the person you talked with, it is the entire package with correspondence with them showing what you are trying to do. Give them no room for error and supposition against you.

        • TS

          @Finally Retired

          If ok with you, please share your notice experience and travel too here. Helpful to hear for future ref.

    • AA

      I would apply for my passport first and see what happens. Take it one step at a time.

      • David

        @ Finally Retired: I would suggest that you send any correspondence via USPS registered, return-receipt mail. That way, you have proof that you sent it and that it was received. Be sure to keep these original records (and return-receipt postcards) and to take copies of them WITH YOU when you travel so you can show them do U.S. Customs/Border Officers when you return and when they send you to secondary customs inspection (which it is very likely that they will do because that is what they do to most of us when we were returned from overseas trips).
        Keep the documentation readily available. You do not want to be a test case for some overzealous idiot prosecutor trying to make a name for him or herself by arguing that you were not compliant with International Megan’s Law requirements.
        Do this …. or risk spending thousands of dollars on a defense lawyer. Better safe than sorry.

        • TS

          Thank you @David for listening to what we’ve been saying here for a long while WRT travel notification and keeping records of it with the traveler on their person, in their luggage, and on the cloud.

          Any traveler who travels and is registry impacted needs to heed this for their safety and protection.

        • Finally Retired

          Now I’m confused. I wasn’t planning to mail the IML form…I was just going to present the filled out form in person at my local Maryland registry office, keeping copies of course, and jotting down the name of the officer.

          The IML website says to report to ‘your local registry office.” Although not required to register in Maryland for the ‘96 non contact Florida offense, i still fall under IML because Florida lists me (they list everyone charged there even if non resident).

        • Mike G

          @Finally Retired

          Why not do both?

          In the dozens of times I have returned through Secondary in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Toronto, Fort Lauderdale, San Ysidro, Otay Mesa, I have yet to have anyone ask whether I gave the 21 day notice, let alone asking to see paperwork. But as David says, there is no point in putting yourself into the position of being a test case!

        • TS

          @Finally Retired

          Taking your notification into the MD cop shop in person for your FL charge is fine as long as you receive some sort of written acknowledgment it was received, not just jotting the name of who received it. It is all about covering yourself and keeping them on their toes so you are not put into a legal corner of having to prove you did notify when you did. Make them work to prove you did not when you did.

          Any 21 day questions have been seen to be asked on the front end of the trip by USMS as far as I can remember here in this forum, but post trip would not surprise me either.

        • Finally Retired

          Guess we can’t be careful enough. I greatly appreciate all the input. Thanks very much.

          Wondering about something.. does anything in the law prevent me from
          Just filing the form with Maryland by certified / return receipt mail alone? Or do I have to do it in person according to the law? Keep in mind that I’m not required to register in my home state’s SOR for a number of reasons ..but because I’m listed in Florida registry (despite not being a resident there), I’m subject to IML..

          My main concern was whether I needed to inform Maryland or Florida of my international travel plans. Since the IML website says to inform ‘your local’ registry office, it’d seem logical to file with Maryland since I live in Maryland but I’m only listed in Florida. Unfortunately florida keeps everyone on theirs just for the arrest..

          Thanks again everyone very much ..

        • TS

          @finally retired

          How you choose to notify is up to you. This effort may be too much but safe is better than sorry.

    • Gralphr

      Keep in mind there’s a chance you will not have a marking in the back of your passport. I recently received passport and it does not have the marking. I will be going overseas soon, and am curious myself if they will make me turn it in in for a replacement upon my return. I’m yet to read anyone in my same situation getting a notice to turn it in.

  11. JP

    Is Texas a good state for a registrant?
    Hi all,
    My husband is the one who has to register in the state of Minnesota for a charge with a minor. He is not given a level, just has to register his residence and then every 6 month he has to update to the states. Everytime we travel in the US, he has to get permission from his PO by giving the PO hotels, car rental, flight information to get a travel permit. When we travel internationally, he has to write to the judge in the county where he pled guilty to ask for permission. He’d write up an explanation of where we’re going and for how long and ask to go. We’ll end up waiting for over a month before we get a stamp from the judge saying we could go. We’ve only gone to Europe and every time we loved it. When we come back we always get pulled aside to check our luggage and stuff but we have never flown back to the US anywhere but Minneapolis airport because i dont want surprises.
    We have been thinking of moving to Austin, Texas but we’re afraid that we’ll face some sort of extra scrutiny in this state. We wanna move to a sunnier place to live and enjoy life more but we’re just so unsure of how texas is when it comes to sex offender traveling and then how about jobs? It’s been 12 years since my husband pled guilty and he was never given a level, but it did involve minors so he can’t go to schools or playgrounds without me, that kind of a thing. Was wondering if anybody here could shed some lights on beinv able to get a job in the IT/software area in texas if you have a sex felony that is over 12 years old? How about government treating you? Thanks so much for all of your inputs. Ever since I found this website, i feel so much better jusy reading the experiences so i really appreciate everybody’s time that you into giving us your updates.

    • R M

      @JP: Are you looking for a “sunnier” place or a place with less restrictions?

      There is a lot of info in your post pertaining to a lot of situations.

      • JP

        We are looking to move to Austin, Texas but we’re not sure if it would be worst than Minnesota. It’s not great here but at least we know what to expect
        Thanks

        • Scotus Save Us Now

          You’re lucky they let him travel internationally while on probation – or you need a judge to approve it even when off paper there (that would seem weird to me)… As far as Texas – my understanding is it’s not very friendly for people in our boat, but no state really is. I live in NY and while for me it isn’t awful, there are lots of lousy requirements.

        • Jp

          @Scotus,
          He is not on probation anymore, he just has to register. We only started traveling internationally after that. Thanks for the infor, this is why we wanted to get other’s inputs before we make the move and regret it
          Thanks

        • John

          Id stay in Minnesota, I did 10 years here with no issues except a town lieing and trying to get me in trouble. the registration officer was cool about it though and took my word over townhall. Big enough city as well easy to blend in and stay low key. I wasent on probation, so that proboly made it more lax. just had to update Otherwise I had no restrictions mostly, had no level also. im not sure on this part, but I think i might of heard Texas could be one of the states that don’t take you off the registry? or was one of the states that put you back on even if you are off, I cant remember what i read on that one

    • H

      @JP
      Texas is not bad after you get off probation in certain cities, the bigger the city the less restrictions you have. That being said check very closely the city you want to relocate to. Austin is large but has a number of smaller cities and towns around it that could present a problem along with bubba police in the smaller cities. I do know other registered individuals, educated, that are able to find work and usually at a pay level below market value of an unregistered person. The best bet if your husband has a true skill set would be to start his own business, a lot of companies farm out their IT work. I hope this helps you!!!

      • texas ex

        i can only give info on my situation
        offense 1994
        have not had a residence check in 3 years, i am a low level offender
        we have our own company for 25 years , very fortunate
        travel with no problems
        own our house
        austin, tx

    • M C

      @JP, MN is an easier state for a registrant than many. I was a registrant there but my registration time expired and I’ve had the conviction judicially expunged (judicial expungement is limited because it doesn’t take it off the executive branch records so it’s value is pretty limited).
      I’m currently a WI resident and not required to register here either. There are many reasons not to move to Texas.

      1. Unless you are unfortunate enough to have lifetime registration in Minnesota (lifetime is actually not that common there unless you are a recidivist or committed an aggravated offense) you will be required to register in Texas until the time required under the Federal Adam Walsh Act expires. Therefore, based on what you’ve said you’re stuck with a minimum 25 years or may be lifetime even if MN is not lifetime. Worse, once you are on the Texas registry for the longer time you will be required to register in MN for the duration of whatever you were required to register in Texas for. So you could potentially be converting your limited registration length to lifetime by moving there even if you change your mind and want to move back later. This won’t change either if you wait until you are no longer required to register in MN. The conviction will trigger the registration requirements in TX. In many states even a MN judicially expunged record will trigger a registration requirement, especially because you will still show up in the NCIC as convicted.

      2. Texas appears to be public regardless of level. In MN, if you are not assigned a level, your information does not show up as a sex offender on either the Federal database or the state database at least for now. It also appears that once on the Texas database it’s not removed from public view if you leave the state.

      3. There are more places in Texas with residency restrictions compared with MN from what I understand.

      I could see maybe moving to Texas if you were not required to register there anymore because of expiration of the required registration time-frame or if you really don’t care that you are on a public database and you are a lifetime registrant already so there would be no benefit to waiting it out in MN.

      Also, I traveled internationally many times when I was in MN before IML and on probation. I never had any problems going anywhere back then except secondary screening coming home and the probation officer would sign a travel permit for me to go whenever I wanted.

      • Jp

        @M C
        Thank you for all the great information. We did not know about the registration in Texas. We really appreciate it. This really helps us decide what we want to do as we have been going back and forth.
        Was also wondering if you happen to know if the record will show up on an employment verification in MN if it has been 12 years? My husband is also thinking of getting a different job but he is apprehensive of the background check so he hasn’t made the move or tried. I’m not sure if you had any infor on this aspect also?
        Again, thanks so much for the information

        • M C

          @Jp,

          It really depends entirety on what the employer does for background checks. Some background check companies won’t report things older than a certain number of years and some will. There are two places where access to this is easily available to the public and is generally where all background checks for MN employers come from unless an FBI fingerprint check. MNCIS is available online and gives court records forever and all you need is a name. This is removable with a judicial expungement if you can somehow manage to get one. That type of expungement would also allow you to say the conviction doesn’t exist for employment purposes (but it is likely to still show up because of the executive branch record). The executive branch record is held at the BCA and the information is public via their online CHS system. It just requires your name and date of birth to look it up. That record is public until 15 years after your probation has been completed and then it becomes a private record. An employer can still look at the private record if you sign the appropriate BCA document releasing that to them but most employers would not do this. The private record can still be looked at for licensing and direct contact jobs (jobs requiring DHS clearance).

        • FormerTexan

          Unfortunely , yes.. MN does not have a limitation on how far back they can go with background checks. ALL background check companies run a seperate query for the national regisrty and if his name comes up it will be included in the report. Also, being from Texas, unless you get your name off in Texas, it will never come off and even if you move. They will keep your name up forever… If you move to a state where they limit how far a check can go, then you “might” have a chance. There is are always around it however… I have been on the registry since I was 18 and I am now in my mid – 40’s and have had a professional career and worked for 6 Fortune 500 companies since I was 21 but I was able to get off the registry in the state I live in back in 2013. I was fortunate enough also to have a 7 year gap where my name was off the Texas registry as well, but at some point they decided to put all out of state registrants back online. Even with my name on the Texas registry, I have been able to keep it from coming up on any background check. You have to game the system and jump through some hoops, but you have to A) get to a state where you can get deregistered and B) move to a state where background checks are limited to a certain number of years..

          I would never move back to Texas nor would I recommend anyone move their voluntarily as your name will be forever online even if you move, heck I was told even when you die. Luckily for me, when I moved to my new state back in 2005, I never told anyone I know my real name and now that I am not registered here, the Texas online details are moot for me.

  12. Jason

    Hello. I have an important and time-sensitive question. I need to alert my local SOAR officer about my (possible, depending on what you tell me here) travel in the next two DAYS.

    I have asked this question on two other sites, last week and today, but for some reason my question is still awaiting moderation on those sites.

    Here is my question:

    Here is a list of countries that will turn you around at the airport after you land:

    http://registranttag.org/resources/travel-matrix/

    I see that I cannot travel to Taiwan, which I have been planning for the last month. Can I instead travel to Hong Kong first and then, on a separate ticket, travel to Taiwan? I’ve looked to see if anyone has addressed this issue on this site but cannot find anything. I am tier 1 but I do have a stamp in the back of my passport—the girl I was dating at the time (in 1995) was 14.

    Thanks for your time in reading and answering!

    • SR @ Jason

      I think you’re SOL. Literally the entire purpose of that stamp is to prevent people form doing exactly what you’re saying you want to do. They didn’t like that people were going into a country that didn’t care about our status and then traveling to a country that did in order to avoid those stupid direct notification. You can try doing what you’re saying, but it’s highly likely that Taiwan will check that last page of your passport upon arrival and turn you away.

    • M C

      @Jason,

      Unfortunately I don’t think there’s a legal way to do this and avoid the notification. I’m confused by your tier status. If your a tier 1 per the SORNA / Adam Walsh guidelines your registration period would be completed if this happened in 1995 unless your state has something different like lifetime registration or your state defines tiers differently? Does your registration requirement ever end?

      To answer your question though, if you are required to notify you would need to notify of travel to both Hong Kong and Taiwan and when you arrived in Taiwan via Hong Kong the green notice would likely show up.

      Further, with a marked passport if Taiwan border officers see the marked passport your SOL.

      It might be possible to get there via Hong Kong if you didn’t notify of the Taiwan travel and only notified of the Hong Kong travel as the US Marshals / Angel Watch would have no way of knowing you were going there and wouldn’t get passenger manifest for the Hong Kong to Taiwan travel to see this. If Taiwan doesn’t look for the passport stamp you could get in this way but then you’d be breaking US law by not having notified of this travel and be subject to prosecution for that. Such travel would be obvious if your passport has a Taiwanese stamp.

      • Jason

        @MC — You are correct. It turns out I did not know what “tier” means. I thought it was my so-called “danger status,” the term for which I have also forgotten. My registration is lifetime and every three months.

    • L

      Don’t be scared to live. To try and fail. It is the only way you will truly know. Some advise that has beem given to you are by people who does not have a first hand account but using their own reasoning. I have scoured this site and other sites and yes, what you are planning to do is possible. I have read other people who have done it. Though, they moved to HK first.

  13. Jason

    Thank you so much for your responses.

    According to the comments in this thread, I see that my problem is unusual. My SOAR officer has never asked me for a detailed itinerary, only for the name of the initial destination country. For the last two years, this has been a country in Europe. After I land, I travel to other countries, also in Europe.

    Now I have learned that we are supposed to supply a detailed itinerary. According to the SMART.gov website (https://smart.gov/international_travel.htm) the required information is as follows:

    Destination(s):
    • Dates/places of departure, arrival and return (if applicable), including the name of the city/town that is the point of departure from each country
    • Means of travel (air, train, ship)
    • Itinerary details (when available), including the name of the airport/train station/port, the flight/train/ship number, the time of departure, the time of arrival and information about any intermediate stops

    So it looks like what’s OK with the local SOAR unit might be a violation with the US Marshalls. My question is: can I get in trouble for landing in my SOAR-approved destination country and then flying to other ones that are not listed, because my SOAR cops have not requested it?

    And here’s another fear: Is it possible that the destination country might notify the US when I land (say, for brownie points)? If so, would I then be in trouble, even though the local cops cleared my “itinerary,” just because that city/country was not listed? BTW, in all my travels, no one has ever opened my passport to the last page to see the stamp. But those were countries in Europe, so maybe that affects their passport looking.

    • NY won’t let go

      I can’t tell you specifically regarding your case under the new laws as I left over three years ago.

      Hong Kong doesn’t stamp passports if you’re just visiting. They give you a little piece of paper with a stamp on it that you need to hold on to until you leave.

      Once you make it out of the country it’s much like Europe but with more stamps.

      If you’re traveling around you most likely won’t have issues unless
      1. You look suspicious/creepy and they google you and your face pops up.
      2. they have heavy ties to the US or require a visa
      3. You don’t look like your passport photo.

      Without the angel watch notice you get treated like a normal human at borders and many don’t blink an eye.(Singapore scrutinizes a bit heavy because they don’t want any chewing gum or untaxed cigarettes in their country)

      A good chunk of those countries that are on the list as rejecting people only reject you based on that notice unless you have a criminal conviction within that country.

      Some on the other hand have a direct tie to the US NCIC system like Japan, UK, Australia, NZ, and PH if I remember correctly.

      Although Japan I have heard may be still a 50/50 shot depending on the sentence given.

  14. David

    Some of you who follow this thread will know that a couple years ago I was greeted by the French police when my airplane landed in Paris. Well, in today’s mail, I finally got the answer to a FOIA request I submitted to the DOJ regarding that incident. The response was approximately 60 pages….. reproduced & redacted emails, traveling sex offender notices, other internal correspondence, etc., much of it duplicated repeatedly. I was probably questioned by the French police because one of the documents indicated my status as “fugitive” while others mention warrants and failure of sex offender to register travel plans. Honestly, it is amazing to see how many errors were in their records and how much bureacratic time the answering of my simple FOIA request seemed to entail! This Angel Watch farce has become a ridiculous waste of tax payer money and government employees’ time.

    Having said that, I do absolutely encourage any registrant who travels internationally to submit a FOIA Request AFTER EACH & EVERY TRIP abroad. Let’s help the government harrassment collapse under it’s own ridiculous bureaucratic weight!!

    • AA

      @David

      Would it be possible to post a link of the paperwork with the initial request. Your personal information redacted? Something that someone with less legal knowledge (like myself) could use to obtain this information. I need paperwork that I can just add the particulars to and send it in. Or post it to the sosen.org forums.

  15. NorthEastPENN

    I am a Pre-SORNA registrant in Penn. Pre-SORNA as in conviction prior to Dec 2012. My registration is to end in Oct of this year (2020). I have never traveled to another state other than for a day so I have had no reason to ever register in another state. Since I have never had to register in another state then once I am off Penn’s registry a would think I would fall off the Federal registry soon after. I have never traveled overseas since being on the registry (starting Oct 2010). I had a passport prior to this conviction in 2006 but it was lost in moving and I reported it to the proper authorities.

    My questions are once I am off the Penn registry in Oct of this year and I apply for a new passport will the new passport have this stamp on the last page? Will I have to submit travel plans to any US authority? Will I have concerns that some countries when I attempt to enter will turn me away because of my Penn registry requirements that have expired?

    The biggest reason why I need to know this information is because my present boss and his wife (who know about my conviction) have been asking me to travel with them in the US and also overseas both for business and pleasure (such as a cruise) but to prevent problems we feel we should wait until I am off the registry hoping that me traveling will be much easier at that time.

    Any advise or help would be appreciated – thanks!!

    • JohnDoeUtah

      Be careful even traveling within the United States. Many states may require you to register, even if your original state no longer requires it. Further, some of those states will publicly post your information and then keep it up, even after you leave their state. Many states started this practice in the last 3-4 years.

      For international travel, it depends. Some people are not on state registries, but still send the notice because IML is based on the federal duty to register 15-year, 25-year, or life, and not your state’s requirements.

      Jurisdiction a federal FTR charge for both AWA and IML is based on travelling in interstate commerce. So if you cross state lines or travel internationally federal FTR likely applies to you and it is based on the federal rules.

      • M C

        @JohnDoeUtah, I generally agree that you are correct though there are many pieces in regards to these laws that are evolving and/or not really even clear. For example, AWA applies retroactively based on guidance by the Attorney General. Such guidance would say that once you don’t have to register in a non SORNA state the AWA registration requirements do not apply unless you commit some new offense (not necessarily sex related) after the state becomes compliant. I think I also saw some case law out there that suggests that a a similar offense at least in some circumstances for tier level for the federal law specifically may actually put most people in tier 1 because just a small difference may make the offense not similar enough. Finally, I think if the offense in different states isn’t similar enough there would be a due process violation by forcing registration without a court proceeding to make that determination. Whats even less clear for me is how a judicial only expungement (like mine in MN) affects these requirements. That said, it’s probably best to be compliant and avoid places that have draconian registration requirements or avoid staying there for the amount of time that would trigger the requirement. While I’d love there to be more case law that makes things more clear I don’t really want to go down the dangerous path of being the one to create it.

        • John

          MC I am curious what your expungment is for? I was under the assumption that expungments in Minnesota were not allowed for a sex related offense. Is a judicial only expungment somthing different from a regular expungment?

        • M C

          @John

          Minnesota is goofy when comes to expungementsn and I found even many attorneys don’t undderstand all of it except those that really specialize in exoungements. Without citing all the case law, the short explanation is that there are actually two types, one that is statuatory which obviously is written into the law by the legislature, signed by the governor. Statutory expungement specifically exempts an RSO, and probably also a former RSO from expungement. Then, there is inherent authority expungement. The State Supreme Court specifically has given the judicial branch the power to seal it’s own records in the interest of Justice if the benefit to the petitoner is greater than the need for the public to be able to view the record. The judiciary can not reach into the executive branch to affect the record in the executive branch however even if the records were originally created in the judiciary absent a constitutional violation. So essentially after a judicial expungement, the record doesn’t exist with a public check at the courthouse (the MNCIS system). It does however exist in the executive branches which include a MN BCA record and in the FBIs NCIC. That said, there are some records laws that provide for, at least partial benefit to the executive records in that you can force them to put a notation on the executive record that says that it has been judicially expunged but you can not make it unviewable by the public or by law enforcement. In MN however, the executive record becomes non-public 15 years after probation ends but that doesn’t affect the federal NCIC record. My offense was against a teenaged minor (3rd degree CSC) the summer between high school and college (I was still a ‘teen’ but adult teen). Which, in my opinion is something that shouldn’t be treated this way but the law is what it is. In regards to international travel I haven’t left the country since 2012 so I have no clue how IML green notices would affect me.

        • John

          MC I was also convicted of 3rd csc. Underage girl at a party and I was 21. I’m first trying to figure out then what my first steps would be to get the same expungment and what are how exactly that would help me. Is it then off your background check? Easier to get a job ect? Minnesota I also dont have to register anymore. Thanks for any tips you can give me ! I greatly appreciate it.

        • M C

          @John,

          I did my expungement pro-se and spent countless hours learning everything in the case law that I could. The BCA even opposed the expungement in writing but did not send anyone to the actual court proceeding. I did have my former probation officer (who was very nice, they aren’t often like that and it probably also helped that she was retiring) and treatment counselor write letters supporting that the likely-hood of me becoming a sexual recidivist was virtually zero which probably helped a lot. I had no violations, other than traffic of any sort during probation or afterward. You will also need to be able to provide proof of the need to have the record expunged such as jobs offers that have been rescinded after a background check etc. It will still be difficult to get such an expungement. I don’t think it this type of expungement happens often.

        • John

          MC may I ask what you told the judge was for your reasoning behind getting an expungment or why you thought you needed one that outweighed the public interest? I would just like an opportunity to find another job. I have been at the same job now for many years however if they knew I had a conviction I would probably be fired

        • AJ

          @M C:
          “Statutory expungement specifically exempts an RSO, and probably also a former RSO from expungement.”
          —–
          From a discussion I had with a MN attorney I know, statutory expungement after being removed from MN’s registry should be possible. Humorously, and somewhat ironically, it goes back to good old Slick Willie’s famous line, “It depends upon what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.”

          In law, the word ‘is’ means currently. So according to my acquaintance’s position, MN’s statute (https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609A.02; Subd. 4) which says, “[r]ecords of a conviction of an offense for which registration is required under section 243.166 may not be expunged,” only apply while one is required to register under section 243.166. If one’s registration period has expired, one is no longer subject to 243.166. Whether a court would allow this, IDK. Whether a court has allowed this, IDK. It still raises an interesting point.

          The lawyer friend also pointed out that when MN “fixed” its expungement laws some years back, it was seen as a boon to many. However apparently the MN SC saw otherwise and completely gutted it due to its wording. Given MN’s turn to the right and its having a split legislature, I wouldn’t hold out any hope they get around to fixing what the SC ruined.

          Another way MN is a bit “goofy” is through its pardon process. Instead of the governor being in control of it, it’s done by a Board consisting of the Governor, the Chief Justice, and the Attorney General. To get a “pardon extraordinary” one must get all three votes. As one can guess, they don’t give out many; I seriously doubt they’ve given any to a post-registration RC.

          Just curious, when were you convicted and expunged?

        • M C

          @John,

          I suggest you review the statutory expungement factors specific to that law (even if it’s for an inherent authority) in conjunction with those in State v H.A., State v. K.M.M. Then you need to make your own arguments that you meet as many of those factors as possible which would weigh in favor of expungement for you. It will have to be based off of your specific circumstances so only you can really answer that.

        • M C

          @AJ, I don’t think your attorney friend is correct. The statutory expungement law lists specific felony offenses that can be expunged and allows most misdemeanor offenses to be expunged. There is already case law in MN that specifically says that a stay of imposition (felony that becomes misdemeanor after completed sentence) is still a felony for purposes of the expungement statute. This is based on the courts interpretation of legislative intent. It’s generally agreed that the reason for the wording you are talking about being in the statute is to take away the inherent authority to expunge the judicial records when registration is still required though it is unclear if this part violates the separation of powers allowing for inherent authority as provided for in State v. C.A. Further, it probably doesn’t matter because if you still have to register you probably won’t be able to pass the balancing test for it anyway. I can tell you that without a doubt, unless the legislature changes the statute, no sex offender is getting a statutory expungement in MN.

        • M C

          @AJ, sorry I didn’t answer your question. Conviction was in 1999, expungemement 2017.

    • Steve

      I am also a former registrant in Pennsylvania. My registration was terminated in March 2018 as a result of the Muniz decision. My 5-yr probation ended in 2016. My offense did not require registration under Megan’s law which was in effect at the time of my conviction, so Adam Walsh was applied retroactively and that was ruled unconstitutional. In any event, I no longer register in Pennsylvania or anywhere else and I have a valid passport that I obtained in 2015 prior to IML, and it is not stamped. In 2018 I traveled to Costa Rica without incident. I did not report my travel to anyone in authority as I do not believe the registration requirement applies to me, i.e., I am no longer a “covered” registrant under IML as I am not required to register in my home state or any other jurisdiction. I travelled extensively to 5 countries in Europe this past fall, again without incident or registration or notification requirements. Based on my experience, your passport should not be stamped after you are removed from the registry, and you should not have to report your travel to authorities. Having said that, one cannot assume that you will not be flagged at the border of and denied entry to certain countries. Much more information is available at the RTAG website https://registranttag.org/

      As others have also mentioned, you may not be able to travel for more than a few days to certain states in the US without having to register based on your conviction, not your current regstration status in Pennsylvania. NARSOL has a useful State Law Wiki that will give you an idea of what you are up against. I have traveled for short durations to New York, Colorado, Massachusetts, and Minnesota, without triggering registration requirements, but I am careful not to stay longer than allowed by statute as the last thing I want is to have to register again.

      • Tuna

        I am in a somewhat similar situation to yours. Have never had difficulty entering anywhere in Europe or Asia.

  16. Gralphr

    I’ll be traveling to Europe in a few months and know I must submit a 21 day notice. Does anyone know if I must tell them everywhere I plan to be staying with my wife? What about the fact we will also go to multiple countries besides the initial country (I will also fly back to the Us from the same airport) so we dont know the hotel yet? As far as my initial country, I will have an address where I’ll be staying, but we won’t be there the whole time. I’m just trying to make sure i dont get back here any they claim i was supposed to mention everywhere we stayed (which in itself is impossible if you’re traveling to multiple places).

    • James I

      Dear Gralphr:

      There does not seem to be any perfect answer to this question. I suspect over time that the rules and requirements will become more stringent, more difficult to comply with.

      However, as for now…the rule seems to be, as noted above by Jason:

      • Itinerary details (when available), including the name of the airport/train station/port, the flight/train/ship number, the time of departure, the time of arrival and information about any intermediate stops.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      The key to me seems to be the phrase, (when available)….if you don’t know, you simply don’t know and do your best in a general way.

      Or, at least, this is how I am going to approach it this year. However, be very wary of the idea of flying to Hong Kong to then get to Thailand or the PI. This seems clearly to me to be illegal and designed to circumvent the rules. Hong Kong to the New Territories and a little beyond….sure, things like this happen.

      Give notice to Vienna (Wien), driving and also end up in Budapest….sure, it is a lovely drive and there might be good reasons to do so…(a good reason to me is….it is a lovely drive and Budapest is a fine city…lol).

      Sorry I could not give you a better answer to your very legitimate question….but again, any answer from The Authorities is going to be more restrictive…so be careful of this also.

      Common sense it probably the only good answer.

      Best Wishes, James I

      PS Let me append…a number of us have made the choice not to travel….until matters cleared up a bit….I am deciding after a year or so, things will not get better, at least for me, so I’m going to give travel in Europe and elsewhere a go this year.

      • Gralphr

        Thanks for the reply. No, I will not be trying to game the system in any way. I just want to make sure I’m in the right when we leave for our trip. While we will primarily be in one country, we may also travel to France for a day or two as well. It really depends on what my wife wants to do so I wont have exact address for the other countries, so I will let them know we may travel to them. I was also told by the registry office that they pretty much process us as moving out the country when we travel overseas. Maybe they actually expect people aren’t going to come back!?

    • David

      @ Gralphr: When I travel to France each year, I list all the cities/towns I will stay in, but I do not provide specifics street addresses or hotel names. If there’s a chance I might also visit another country, I put that down also (“‘Might also visit Italy”). The Europeans don’t really care – it’s the US Custom/Border Patrol that cares, so list everyplace you might go. Better to over list, than to go somewhere you didn’t list at all.

      • Gralphr

        Does anyone know if when you go to give 21 day notice, do you also have to provide your passport? I was told when I go to inform them, bring trip Information to include my passport. The passport part has me nervous since I was issued a passport without the notice in the back a month ago. It almost makes me want to go in before 21 days just in case they give me problems behind it, and if so I’d pay for an Express passport.

  17. Jason

    If I get removed from the SOR in my convicting state, am I cleared (1) in all states, (2) nationally, and (3) with Internal Megan’s Law? My “crime” (consensual dating a 14 year-old 25 years ago, took plea in 1999) was in Georgia. Is “getting my registration requirement fully expunged” a thing? My lawyer told me: “If you want removal from all registries, you must do it with the trial judge in your state of conviction.” Is that correct?

    Does such a thing as total expungement exist? Does it indeed trickle down in the way my lawyer said—from the state of conviction to everywhere else?

    In other words: Can I “remove my name” in such away that it is truly removed, from all databases, including the national and IML ones?

    If such a thing as total removal, does not exist, then does “removing my name” from my CURRENT state mean that I am cleared from the IML/passport problem as long as my flight originates from my SOR-cleared state?

    Apparently this info is so widely known that it’s not written about anywhere. Thanks in advance.

    • JohnDoeUtah

      This may be worth reading: “Moreover, the Sixth Circuit has already determined that a sex offender’s obligations under SORNA do not depend on whether the sex offender has duties under applicable state sex offender registration laws. See United States v. Paul, 718 F. App’x 360 (6th Cir. Dec. 11, 2017).”

      The same would apply to other states, each state is its own sovereign and are not bound by your status in your state.

      • M C

        @JohnDoeUtah,

        I read this opinion and am confused, with the opinion. It seems the appellant was told he wouldn’t have to register and it didn’t specifically state that this applied only under state law in the plea agreement at least. The assumption the circuit Court makes is that the state can’t plea bargain away federal legal requirements. The problem here is that if the plea agreement states something that the state can not fulfill you have Samtobello v New York (1972). I’m surprised this was never brought up in the opinion and can only assume without reading the appellants brief that the appellant also failed to mention it. Or perhaps it wasn’t mentioned because it would never be allowed to be out in a new plea agreement upon withdrawal of plea anyway. Either way, I think the 6th got their reasoning wrong but I’m not the Supreme Court so what do I know.

    • M C

      Quite frankly it’s a complicated mess of different laws. Some states won’t recognize expungement and some will. The federal obligation depends on if the state is SORNA compliant. Some states go beyond the SORNA requirements. If you can get off the registry in your state, pay attention to the requirements if traveling to other states so as not to trigger the requirement to register there. If your goal is to make sure IML doesn’t affect you for international travel it sounds like you are tier 2 under federal SORNA. Provided that you don’t trigger some longer requirement in another state or are still required to register in some state you should not be impacted by IML after 2024, I believe.

      • John

        MC Sorna laws seem nearly impossible to understand. The fact that I dont have to register in Minnesota make it difficult in asking other states whether I have to register there when traveling. Everyone you talk to has a different answer. My question is my charge is 609.344 (b) I have read the Sorna charts for Minnesota state compliance and it in my opinion would make me a tier 3 I believe the worst on the list requiring lifetime registration. I’m a level 1 here. Since you have the same charge I’m wondering if this sounds accurate to you?

        • JohnDoeUtah

          Without knowing which elements of were included in your conviction it is hard to know, but as long as force or coercion is not a factor, your crime is equivalent to 18 U.S.C. 2243, which is Tier II under National SORNA Guidelines (25-years). Thus, IML requirements would likely stick with you for 25-years. The crappy part is that National SORNA puts the duty on you to register, not on the state to register you. And, it is strict liability.

          Like the opinion I posted stated: you would need to attempt to register your travel plans with your state to show you attempted to follow the law, and continue to do so until you are successful, otherwise the federal government doesn’t care. In fact, the judge states that any state jurisdiction who failed to take your information and forward it to federal authorities would be subject to loss of federal grants for failure to do so.

          Congress passed SORNA to make everyone equal. I guess they don’t like the states pushing back and not amending their laws to suite, but they are still going to get their cell filled because they put it solely on you to register and no one else.

        • M C

          @John, without aggravating circumstances or repeat offenses it victim under 13 I would say that puts you in Tier II but as JohnDoeUtah states your circumstances may be different than my assumptions. I may be totally wrong @JohnDoeUtah so this is an opinion but I’ll say that MN is not a SORNA compliant state so they already don’t get the funding. The SORNA guidelines themselves specifically state in regards to retroactivity that where offenders have left the justice system (not incarcerated, not registered and not on probation) and they haven’t re entered the justice system are not within the cognizance of the jurisdiction for SORNA because it isn’t likely practical to do so. So I don’t think the SORNA requirements can apply to the requirement to register under SORNA on the basis of the federal rules as they have specified them. And I don’t think notification under IML can be required in these states but that could change if they substantially adopt SORNA later and decide to apply retroactively beyond these guidelines which they certainly could choose to do. HOWEVER, many SORNA and even other non-SORNA states have their own set of rules that may require even a former registrant in one state to register if they visit or move to that state. If you trigger this registration requirement somewhere even after a visit, you are now back in the justice system per the SORNA guidelines (not sure what happens here if you are de-registered after the visit though) and all of the notification requirements likely can be applied such as the IML notification requirements should that happen. In the end though nobody really knows how it is supposed to work until you get arrested and have to defend yourself in court. Even then it’s inconsistent. In many ways I think these laws are set up to make you fail. Even courts can’t give consistent rulings on them

  18. Finally Retired

    Wondering -if my SORNA registration obligation based on my particular tier is over, but I’m still listed on the registry of the state where I was charged even though I don’t live or work there, am I still subject to IML? IOW, would the Feds even care at this point? My offense is not a coveted offense in my home state of Maryland, and therefore I’m not on the state registry.

    Im SORNA tier 1 and my supervision ended in 2000.

    Thanks very much!

    • JohnDoeUtah

      I would say while you may still be listed (which I would try to undo if possible), you are not “required” to register in your original state or keep it current. Likely they have zero jurisdiction over you. So, if the Federal Tier has expired and your not “required” to register in any state, then I do not think (opinion) that IML applies to you.

      I do find it highly disturbing that states continue to maintain people on registries after they no longer have jurisdiction over them.

      • Finally Retired

        Put differently: After one’s federal obligation to register expires per one’s particular SORNA Tier, what would be the Federal interest to get involved then? There would seem to be no Federal interest in this regard, unless there’s reason in the federal law to still enforce a state’s bogus listing practice even after registrants move out and not study or work in that state.

        SORNA itself doesn’t require updating the original registration if the person moves out and is no longer a resident, employee, or student in the original jurisdiction. Would then the Feds have a legal basis to get involved just because some state insists on listing you without a jurisdictional basis to do so?

        Yes, good lawyers like to say “it depends.” But on what exactly might it depend in this scenario? I wonder..

        Thanks again!

        So again – what exactly would be the Federal interest then (once the registration period per one’s SORNA Tier has duly expired)?

        Thanks again ..

        • M C

          @FinallyRetired. I’m not sure the rationale the feds have and I don’t know about SORNA itself but as far as IML is concerned if you are registered in any state you would be subject to IML even if you are not required to register under the federal law. Therefore visiting somewhere like Florida and registering there under their law requiring visitors to register would subject you to IML more than likely for life if you let offense is against a child.

        • Finally Retired

          @ MC

          IML is part of SORNA, and it applies only to covered registrants. Thus if anyone is required by SORNA to register, IML applies to him or her. The problem then is whether merely listing someone on a registry who’s not required to register per SORNA qualifies as a covered offender according to SORNA and thus subject to IML.

          SORNA is quite clear – registration applies to all with convictions who live, work, or study in a jurisdiction. And only on those 3 bases. That is how SORNA defines who is required to register (“registrant”). And remember, only covered “registrants” are subject to IML.

          According to SORNA registration guidance, one is not required to update the registry once one leaves a jurisdiction. Therefore, wouldn’t one cease to be a ‘registrant’ in that jurisdiction? So it would seem to follow that merely being listed on a registry doesn’t qualify as being ‘registered’ by SORNA standards, which are the standards that govern IML. Remember that registration according to SORNA entails a level of ongoing monitoring and a duty to update biographical details up to one’s tier required registration period. That would not be the case when a long ago jurisdiction fails to remove someone who doesn’t live, work, or study in that jurisdiction (e.g., state or territory).

          Seems to me anyways ..

        • M C

          @Finally Retired, the language in the IML specifically defines a sex offender for purposes of the passport identifier as “an individual who—(A) is a sex offender, as defined in section 16935b(f) of Title 42; and (B) is currently required to register under the sex offender registration program of any jurisdiction.” Further for purposes of green notices a covered sex offender is defined as “an individual who is a sex offender by reason of having been convicted of a sex offense against a minor.” So it seems to me, to have the stamp in the passport you have to be a registrant somewhere, but even if you are not a registrant but have committed an offense against a minor EVER they may still send out a green notice on you. If you are not under SORNA, you wouldn’t have to register your travel plans 21 days before unless the state law says otherwise.

        • Finally Retired

          @MC

          Thanks very much. I’m just now reviewing this whole statutory framework, and I must say it’s confusing as heck. But that certainly clarified that at least im covered as far as the passport mark, by virtue of my being listed by Florida.

          Although I may not be subject to SORNA per se since I’m after the 15 years for tier 1 and not subject to Florida jurisdiction as a MD resident, it may be wisest to just file the travel papers with Maryland as my local registry.. let’s see what they’ll say about this!

          BTW I’m assuming that no contact offenses are automatically Tier 1..

          Thanks very much MC.

    • NotHere

      That’s a great question….. and I bet good lawyers would respond, “ it depends “
      Still love to know the answer! If you travel out please update us.

      • Finally Retired

        Moderator -please post this reply version instead. Thanks very much.

        @MC

        Thanks very much. I’m just now reviewing this whole statutory framework, and I must say it’s confusing as heck. But that certainly clarified that at least im covered as far as the passport mark, by virtue of my being listed by Florida.

        Although I may not be subject to SORNA per se since I’m after the 15 years for tier 1 and not subject to Florida jurisdiction as a MD resident, it may be wisest to just file the travel papers with Maryland as my local registry.. let’s see what they’ll say about this since I’ve never registered in Florida! My offense was essentially indecent exposure involving a minor back in ‘96.

        BTW I’m assuming that noncontact offenses like mine are automatically Tier 1 under SORNA. And further, that once abroad in Europe I won’t be required to register locally under their registration programs (Spain, France, Italy).

        Thanks very much MC.

  19. David

    Thank you, “MC” and “Finally Retired”. You make some very interesting points in your discussion.

  20. M C

    I have a question about travel to the UK and wonder if anyone knows the answer. I’ve actually been there a few times, the last time over 10 years ago and I was actually on probation at the time. I had no questions asked as to criminal history when I entered at that time and had no issues getting in except the UK’s typical request for proof that I was traveling on a round trip ticket and that I had access to enough funds to cover the costs of my stay.

    I read now with IML and the travel chart that UK will not allow visits from Registered Citizens (and actually other felons) when they know about it, such as them looking it up with the FBI, which they have access to or them getting a green notice. So I did a bit of research regarding their entry process with a criminal record. From what I understand, the UK has something called spent convictions. According to their immigration laws, this applies to people visiting and attempting entry into the country as well as their own citizens. According to this, if you spent less than 30 months in prison, in you home country your conviction become ‘spent’ after 10 years and can not be used for the purposes of entry into the country as a visitor, only if you are permanently attempting to immigrate to the country. My research suggests that there isn’t an exception to spent convictions for sex offenders and registered sex offenders. The UK considers the length behind bars indicative of the severity of the offense so its not about how long its punishable for but how long you were actually sentenced for.

    So my question is this, while the UK may be off limits if your conviction is not spent, even with a green notice, according to their own rules, it seems once the conviction is spent they actually would have to let you in. It’s my understanding that under their laws for this, the burden of proof is on the immigration officer to prove that the conviction is not spent if they want to deny you entry. So is everyone actually denied entry to the UK, or can we get in if it is ‘spent’?

    Finally, if green notices are being sent out, perhaps anyone traveling to the UK, in the event that a conviction would be considered spent, should apply for a visa in advance of travel anyway. This way, the decision about whether a conviction is actually ‘spent’ is made prior to arrival and the green notice should have no effect. I know not all of us had less than 30 month sentences, but I also know that some of us do. What does anyone know about all this, if anything?

  21. M C

    I have a similar question about Japanese travel. According to Japan, a conviction where incarceration was less than 1 year (they specifically say the incarceration was less than 1 year not punishable for more than 1 year) is not a bar to entry. I understand however that Japan’s border officers have a right to make a determination about whether or not to bar entry based on anything they want. I also understand that getting a visa in advance approved for Japan would not necessarily guarantee entry when you get there (like it would most often with the UK). So what about getting in there if your incarceration was less than 1 year? The green notice would still probably be sent out but it seems that shouldn’t be an absolute bar to entry?

    • JP

      @MC,
      We also have the same question about Japan because my husband was only in for 6 months but we’re too afraid to travel 20 hours and then be denied. We were thinking of possibly going to Hawaii and then gonto Japan from Hawaii so if we are denied, we can just go back to Hawaii and finish the vacation. However, we don’t have the income to be able to just buy tickets to Japan to see if we can get in, maybe in about 10 years…

      • Finally Retired

        Would love to go to both UK and Japan but had thought they were out of reach with a felony ., though it was 24 years ago and I just did probation. Things were different at the time in regards to court sanctions, even in Florida.

        Very interested in reading about this.

      • M C

        The issue that comes into play with Japan even if sentence was less than 1 year and you would otherwise qualify to gain entry I is the green notice. One of the other things that can get you denied entry to Japan is if they determine there’s a high probability of you committing a crime. From what I understand basically that’s what these green notices are saying. That you are likely to commit a crime against a minor. That’s why it’s important to make our government tell you what they are actually saying about you even when you enter a county who will let you in like a Schengen one. It’s one thing to say you were convicted of a crime x years ago and another to say you are likely to commit one now without any evidence to back that up. While I don’t agree with the notices being sent at all, sending what amounts to libel (hard to prove because opinions aren’t generally considered libel) to a foreign nation to influence their decision beyond what is actual fact should never be okay.

        • TS

          @M C, et al

          Question becomes why does a country who is tied into the US NCIC database, i.e. Japan, et al, need a green notification at all if they can possibly read about anyone at passport control before letting them in or not? Seems duplicative

        • M C

          @TS, they certainly shouldn’t need one if directly tied to NCIC which is kind of my point. If Japan used NCIC to see your conviction, absent a green notice, if you were locked up less than a year you probably should get in but an Interpol green notice leads the receiving country to believe you are a imminent threat and they turn you away on the assumption that you are going there to commit a crime because our government is basically telling them that. With access to NCIC alone they should be able to make the decision based on more realistic criteria. It’s not that I like them looking me up in NCIC either and I don’t think our government should be sharing that information but at least that information doesn’t serve to specifically Target and prevent a SO from traveling.

        • TS

          @M C

          Agree. There’s probably reciprocal data sharing from them to us but your point is spot on.

        • NY Won’t let go

          I was planning to test the waters with Japan in March but I’m in the process of opening a new business here and it’s gonna need my full attention for at least the first year.

          From what I’ve gathered so far from Japan is that you should not lie on your landing card as they can just check right away now, it asks if you have ever been convicted of any crime ever.

          The embassy here said it would be 50/50 for me to get in as I spent less than a year but the registry was the issue.

          They also advised me if I try to use the ferry from Korea as it would be less likely that they would check into it.

  22. Rob

    Hello All –

    Can someone please let me know if they have the address to send a 21 day notification to for the San Fernando Valley? I am travelling to Europe for my bday in March, and I want to send that out 4 weeks prior to my trip. I am waiting for my new passport, I am nearly certain it will have the notification, but I am not concerned about that as I only use my US passport for re-entry to the US. I am very lucky to have an EU passport also, which I use for ALL of my travel. Thank you all in advance for this information.

    • Joe

      You provide notification to your registering agency / the cop shop where you do your annual registration.

  23. steve RE: ROB

    Rob I also go to the Costco in Van Nuys. I personally went in before my trip to Europe in June. Office was closed but officer walking in took my 21- day notice gave me his card wrote date and time I dropped it off. I took card with me on my trip and have pic of it on my phone. Go in personally it’s very easy as you know there. You will probably not have the notice on it. The revocation comes after you return but you never know……

    • kim

      Im confused!I was under the assumption that California is non SORNA. When you give your notification of 5 days of travel (say cruising to Mexico) to your local yearly registrant office,who do they give the information to?

      • steve

        You have to give 21 day notice to go to Mexico or anywhere out of the country It’s a federal law not California’s.

      • M C

        @kim,

        According to the SORNA compliance audit on the SMART website, California does report information for the Angel Watch Program but at the time of that audit did not proactively submit travel information 21 days in advance to the US Marshalls office. That said, just because some jurisdictions is non-SORNA doesn’t mean it doesn’t comply with certain aspects of it. All SORNA requirements would need to be implemented for a state to be SORNA. Therefore it’s likely that when you report travel it goes to the US Marshalls office even if it’s not reported with the proper SORNA time frame.

      • David

        The 21-Day Notification is forwarded to the U.S. DOJ, the US Marshals Service and Angel Watch. They then notify the country/ies to which the Registrant is traveling.

        • Will Allen

          Damn that’s funny. These criminal regimes are so pathetic. I’m sure if they sent these notices to only 2 more nanny big government agencies then they will save one child. Then they could all celebrate saving their first child.

          Just remember that NBG can’t ever be too big and that everyone needs them to protect us.

  24. lee

    I am not seeing data point on Fiji visit. Are we allowed to go there? Anyone knows?

  25. Finally Retired

    On the issues of defending against FTR in a state non-compliant with SORNA and mapping your state offense to one of the SORNA Tiers. . .

    Someone here suggested that there’s no defense in SORNA for failing to register even if your state won’t register you (“strict liability”). However, I found this government Legal Analysis that cites a provision in the law that in fact shields individuals required under SORNA to register and who make the effort to register, but their state will not post their registration.

    In pertinent part: “ In a prosecution for a violation under subsection (a), it is an affirmative defense that – (1) uncontrollable circumstances prevented the individual from complying; (2) the individual did not contribute to the creation of such circumstances in reckless disregard of the requirement to comply; and (3) the individual complied as soon as such circumstances ceased to exist.”

    Look under “affirmative defense” in this piece –

    https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42692.pdf

    *** Also, I found this compendium of scholarly articles by a law professor that includes a useful chart mapping NC state sex crimes to the federal tiers. Even if your offense was not in N.C., it should still be a useful reference to map state-level convictions to the federal tiers (the professor does a good job of describing the various state level offenses and tiers, even using case law to clarify murky crime elements).

    Keep in mind that if a sex-related conviction involving a minor won’t map to either tiers II or III, then it is presumed to fall under tier I.

    Here’s the link for the chart and his related postings –

    https://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/tag/sorna/

    • M C

      I’m not so sure that the NC mapping is accurate based on United States v. Walker at least for now. That mapping is at the very least not accurate in the 7th circuit for now and that circuits decision may have at least some level of relevance elsewhere. https://mitchellhamline.edu/sex-offense-litigation-policy/2019/07/24/united-states-v-walker-7th-cir-2019/

      • Finally Retired

        @ M C … excellent contribution. I wonder if this case, where basically the court said that SORNA requires federal registration up to one’s tier requirement, doesn’t also mean that if you’ve already met your tier’s registration time requirement then you’re no longer subject to SORNA -and thus NOT subject to the 21-day advance international travel notice requirement (nor the 3-day notice for domestic travel). ..hmmm.

        …….

        But in regards to the issue of looking at special circumstances/the victim’s age, I read this case differently. To me, this court didn’t generally hold against looking at underlying case facts to see if special SORNA circumstances are met that might increase one’s tier. Rather, this court held that in this particular case, the District Court couldn’t properly look at underlying facts (e.g., victim age) because the state statute of conviction did not properly map to any of the SORNA provisions that apply to tiers II and III that include special circumstance of age as a tiering factor.

        General rule: If the elements of a state offense are the same (or narrower) than the federal offense, there is a categorical match. Once there’s a categorical match, a circumstance‐specific analysis of the victim’s age on top of the categorical comparison should be made between the state and federal offenses. But a court still needs a proper categorical match to a federal offense with special circumstances first before looking at the underlying age where age is a special circumstance tier determinant. In this case, the court held that the purported ‘match’ to the aggravated federal sexual contact offenses was erroneous.

        This court’s reasoning therefore seemed to agree with the NC professor in saying that a state conviction should be first compared to a defined federal SORNA crime. Then, where there’s a direct/categorical offense match from state to federal, courts should look to see if there might be special circumstances in the matching federal crime, such as age, that might elevate a tier classification from from II to III (‘hybrid’). (I got the sense that in SORNA special circumstances for tiering only come into play to differentiate between II and III).

        IOW, courts should first find the generic federal SORNA crime that matches the specific state crime of conviction and then see if the specific federal offense definition has added (aggravating) circumstances (within that crime) that might up the tier classification from II to III.

        In this case, the court held that because the state statute criminalizes additional conduct not covered under the federal aggravated sexual contact provisions, the lower court erred because it didn’t start out with a proper categorical match.

        Seems to me anyways..

        So: you first have to see if there’s a direct crime match from state to SORNA and then look to see if there are exceptions within the appropriate SORNA definition for the matched crime (e.g., age) that would up a tier classification.

        In this case the special circumstances under the aggravated offenses could not even be considered, because the state crime of conviction did not categorically match those elevated federal offenses. The court did not hold that tier determinations are to be made solely on the basis of the elements of the crime of conviction where special circumstances apply to a categorical match.

        But in this case the state crime definition criminalized more conduct that the aggravated sexual contact crimes in SORNA (thus, not a proper categorical match).

        But for distinguishing between tier II and III for qualifying offenses within those two tiers, then courts should look at the underlying case facts for age where there’s a proper categorical match between state and federal offenses.

        • M C

          @FinallyRetired,

          I agree with your analysis mostly. I should have clarified that I wasn’t talking specific to North Carolina mapping but your assertion that it could be used mapping with other states. My point was to be sure there’s actually a catagorical match before simply assuming a federal Tier II or III applies. I think this ruling clarifies a bit better, but not perfectly, how to determine a categorical match.

          This particular case takes a lot of looking back at the federal and state laws to understand what is actually going on. It seems to me it is actually the fact that the victims were classified under the federal definition for the law as children (under 12) rather than minors (12-16) that saved him from a Tier III classification because of how the categorical comparison works out. Had the victims been over 13 the Colorado statutory rape laws would apply instead (he would have been charged under a different Colorado statute) and I believe the categorical comparison would have put him squarely into the Tier II category. This statute after all almost perfectly matches the federal one. The Colorado child molestation statute he was charged with for child victims doesn’t quite match the federal law as it applies to the SORNA tiers. Herein lies the problem and why he’s a Tier I. At least that’s how I am understanding this..

        • Finally Retired

          @ M C

          So would you say that after one’s Federal tier-specific registration obligation expires, one’s no longer subject to SORNA and hence not required to provide the 21-day advance travel notice? IML IS part of SORNA..?

          wrinkle: what if you’re still “listed” by the charging state though not a resident, student, nor employed in that state? what bearing would this have, if any?

          Any case law on this or related issue?

          Thanks very much.

        • M C

          @Finally Retired,

          I think the state and federal are completely independent but work together, especially when it comes to IML. I would say If you are no longer required to register under SORNA you are not required to give a 21 day notification under the federal law. That doesn’t mean however that you wouldn’t have to give the notification under state law. According to IML you are subject to it if you are subject to registration in ANY jurisdiction. So if ANY state you have registered in makes you register longer than federal SORNA otherwise would you would still have to give the 21 day notice for travel. Quite frankly this seems unfair, probably unconstitutiomal even because IML is applied differently to an identical crime depending on where you lived or traveled domestically (Florida travel makes you subject to IML forever for example). Regardless this is how it seems to be designed.

  26. H

    Does anyone know about travel to Boliva? I may need to go there for work

    • PK

      That’s a very good question. I have yet to hear a word about travel to Bolivia.

      • NY won’t let go

        @PK Holy crap, you’re alive. Sent you an email a while back but haven’t heard from you. Hope everything has been okay

        • PK

          @NY sorry I missed your email Im not sure what happened to it.

          My case in you know where is still on-going believe it or not 😉

          Have you heard anything about Paul R’s from RTAG case in Mexico?
          I emailed him but he is incognito.

        • NY won’t let go

          Haven’t heard about his case. I finally got the money around for mine. She said she started working on it right before new year but haven’t heard back since

        • PK

          @NY Now I’m remembering what you were planning on doing in NY.

          Your Attorney does know me, as our situations are similar.
          Please let me know if there is any way that I could help.

        • NY won’t let go

          I think I’ll just email her next week to check in and see what’s going on. She said it would take a few months to file.

          I just want to hopefully get this all settled as soon as possible so it won’t come back and bite me later.

          I’ve been getting some accidental air time here on local channels and have been trying to keep my face and name out of the press releases for the projects I’ve had to work on. The last thing I need is for someone to google me after they see me in tv…

        • R M

          @ NY won’t let go…”I’ve been getting some accidental air time here on local channels…”. Why, what’s going on? No answer to lesson the coverage is accepted.

        • NY won’t let go

          The air time is due to the camera loving my face 🤣🤣. With my current line of work I have to mingle with many high profile people.

          Musicians, actors, politicians, and industry elites.

          The press is constantly around them so my face has been showing up a lot. It’s going to be even more so in the next coming months when I have to start speaking at press conferences and events representing several companies.

          One of the events is supposedly going to be broadcast globally but I am going to try and bow out from this as I don’t want to be the face for this company on a global scale.

          So yeah… right now only my voice is known nationally and in parts of China.

          I’m worried about my face getting too well known to where people will actually take time to look me up.

    • M C

      I can’t find any data anywhere about Bolivia and IML or entry with someone who has a criminal record. I can say however that it doesn’t look good for someone subject to an IML notice. First, the age of consent there is 14 and there’s some human trafficking issues there. The state department is very concerned with sex tourism there, enough to have a travel advisory for Bolivia stating that one can still be prosecuted for sexual contact with minors in the United States even if the contact is legal there. Finally I did find that Bolivia works closely with Interpol to prevent people involved in trafficking (drug and human) from entering the country. Given the way I’ve heard the IML notices are being provided, I think they are going to think you’re entering their country to traffic because of the IML notice. At the very least our country is going to do everything they can to prevent someone subject to IML from going there. That said, I could be totally wrong in my guessing. Since nobody has said anything about not getting in there that could mean it’s not an issue as well. If you end up going please report back about it!

      • H

        @MC
        Thank you for the input and I think you are correct, not to mention i have also seen warnings about general safety in Bolivia for those wanting to travel there. I’m hoping I can set up to do the work remotely. Thank you again, H

  27. Expat2be

    Hey guys,

    I’m currently a tier 3 (lifetime) registrant in MI for a CSC 3rd degree. It is not against a minor, so I don’t anticipate having a marked passport.

    My question is, does Michigan take you off the registry once you move out of the country? That would mean I’d be off the national registry as well right? I plan on leaving here as soon as I get off parole next year and want to be free to travel as much as possible.

    I know certain countries have access to the US database so I’m sol with those, but would like to see countries that normally don’t allow RSOs/SOs to enter, like South Korea.

    My plan is to tell the state I’m leaving for good to say, Hong Kong or some European country. Would they take me off the registry then? Or would I have to file some request after I arrive at my destination country?

    Afterwards, I figured it’d be safe to fly into South Korea or Singapore which normally don’t allow registrants in.

    • David

      @ ExPat2Be: If I understand correctly, you plan to move to another country, but still maintain your US citizenship and US passport, correct??

    • NY won’t let go

      When you move out of state they take you off of it, so they will probably take you off if you move out of the country as well. That was seriously the only upside of the Michigan registry. They took you off their list of you didn’t live there anymore. Not sure if that’s changed in the past 6 years though.

      Singapore is an overrated tourist trap and for me was just an excuse to charge too much for a plate of rice.

      If going to Korea be prepared for a whole bunch of people who don’t speak English or at least avoid it as much as possible.

      • ML

        I was working in Michigan off and on and was removed from their site each time I returned home.

      • daniel

        Hello, have you traveled to Korea while being registered? I have heard Korea is a no go for RSO. Any experience on some Asian countries?

        Thanks

        • Austin

          I was all set up and booked for a Korea Trip this past October. Went up to drop off baggage at the desk and was told I was denied entry. Anyone have any idea on ML and Sealed Records?

  28. Mot

    Has anyone taken a cruise to the Bahamas and had any issues or is it off limits to us?
    Got invited to join some friends in Nov 2020 but before I say NO or YES I want to check it out

    • David

      @ MOT: I have no answer regarding Bahamas, but be aware that some cruise lines will not allow you (any registrant) on board.

  29. Nick

    Hi all. Going on a cruise in June. I am not on IML or CA Megan’s Law. I still plan on submitting my 21 day notice, but I was wondering how they find out about whether or not someone is registered. Hope I dont have to tell my family I cant go. Thanks.

    • David

      # Nick: I believe they check if a person’s name is listed on the federal sex offenders database list And I believe the federal list is sourced from all the different States’ sex offenders lists.

  30. M C

    I guess I’m confused. How are you not on IML or CA Registration and required to give 21 day notice? If you’re a registrant somewhere you’re on IML and if you are not then what is the reason you need to give 21 day notice?

    • Nick

      I have a misdemeanor 314. I’m required to register, but I’m excluded from ML in CA, and IML. I’m not on any internet database. I wont need a passport for this cruise. I’m going to give the notice so I’m not breaking the law, as I’m still required to register. I’ve been on carnival before with no problems, but it was 8 years ago. I figured they just checked names against an online database, so I should be ok. Just wondering if anyone had experiences or knew. Thanks.

    • M C

      @Nick,. I don’t see how that excludes you. The fact that you register is ML and if you are required to register IML will apply. You are registering somewhere, it seems.

      • Nick

        I’ve been excluded from the public databases only. I still have to register, but my info is not on megans law or the public national database. That’s what my question pertains to…how the cruise lines get their info. My registering agency says I’m good to go for the cruise, but if carnival uses something other than the public information websites, they may cancel my booking. I booked 2 months ago, and no word yet.

        • M C

          @Nick,

          I think the confusion has to do with how you are defining Megan’s Law. Federally it has to do with the disclosure to the public but in some states it refers to even having to register in the first place. I would say that the cruise company may not know if its not on the national registry. That said, you may be denied entry at ports if the US government notifies, under IML of your impending entry and if you are required to give 21 day notice. I think there is a good chance that they do this.

        • Nick

          Thanks for the response. This is what I worry about. For the cruise itself, no passports are required, and from my understanding, you just need your carnival card to get off and on the ship at the ports, so theres no passport to look up at all. I will still give my 21 day notice and see what they say about it, but it’s a closed loop cruise, depart and enter same port of entry. Thanks for your reply.

  31. Don’t tread on me

    Interesting experience today. I’m hoping for anyone’s in the know input. I’m planning a trip to travel internationally. I recently applied for and received a new passport. The passport arrived without any marking. I gave my 21 day advanced notice today. I provided my itinerary, flight numbers and dates of travel as required. He entered the information into the notes section of my SOR record on the computer. The clerk at the sheriff dept stamped and signed my itinerary and handed it back. He stated that was all there was to it. This seems simplistic for something of such a huge consequence if incorrect. I’m not complaining, just making sure that is all I have to do. I have not traveled in many years. Anyone have any insight?

    • steve

      You did all you’re supposed to do. Done! Have a good trip.

    • AJ

      @Don’t tread on me:
      I’d ensure I have with me multiple copies of that signed and stamped document. Perhaps a scan or picture on my phone, a couple copies stored in different pieces of luggage, one kept at home with a trusted individual, etc. These are all methods I routinely use with my passport in case of loss or destruction. It’s much easier and faster to get a replacement if one has copies of the old/lost/destroyed one.

    • Gralphr

      Did they ask to see your passport? Mine isnt marked either and I wonder if you have to take it when going to do the 21 day notice.

      • steve

        No you don’t need to bring your passport

      • Don’t tread on me

        They did want my passport number. I added it to my itinerary. They never asked to see my passport. I am in Michigan.

        • Josh

          Did anybody happen to hear anything about the state of Michigan’s response that was due today in the Does II case?

        • Don’t tread on me

          Josh, I’m not sure that was today. I could be wrong though. My understanding was the relevant important dates are January 24 and February 5. The 24th was not a deadline but the state did have to have all work materials for re-writing the law submitted. February 5 is the date of the next court date being held in Port Huron under Judge Cleland. Judge Cleland is expecting the law to be constitutional at that point. I’m not optimistic but I do have hope.

        • Dennis

          Where are you getting information about the law-rewrite being submitted? I dont believe the judge asked for or is ruling on that. Its only a motion to decide if any type of injunction will occur on the ex post facto claim which is Feb 5.

          The states brief reply was due on 1/3/20. The plaintiff reply to that is due 1/24/20

        • Josh

          @Don’t Tread…..hey, I went back and checked some of those court filings and there was a response from the defendants(state of Michigan) that WAS due on the 13th. The 24th is the due date for the plaintiff’s response to that and then onto the 5th of February. Like you not real optimistic…

    • David

      @ Don’t tread on me: As AJ suggested – and I concur – definitely make multiple copies of the document and keep a couple copies with you when you travel. You will not need them in foreign countries – I never have – but you will need them upon your return, going through U.S. Customs at the U.S. airport. Also, you can expect to be directed to “secondary clearance” which is standard procedure for most of us who have to give 21 day notice.
      Curious…what State are you in? (I am in California. I submit my 21-day notification to my local police department [registering agency]. The Police Department then types the information into the computer and sends it electronically to the US Department of Justice, US Marshals Service/ Angel Watch Program. USDOJ/USMS/ Angel Watch then notify the countries to which one intends to travel.)

      • TS

        @Don’t tread

        Put a copy on the cloud, e.g. web based email or docs place, also to ensure you have it everywhere you could possibly reach it should you need it, which we hope you don’t. We have recommended that before here.

        • Don’t tread on me

          Thanks all. It’s been many years since I’ve traveled. I hope this is a positive experience. I will report my experience to rtag

        • David

          @ Don’t Tread on Me: What countries do you plan to visit? Just curious. (I would recommended Europe.)

  32. RSVP No

    Ugh. One of my good friends just announced his wedding schedule for this summer. It’s a destination wedding. In Mexico.

    Guess I’m out.

  33. Steveo

    @Don’t tread on me — Have a good time, and relax. The advice you’ve gotten here is being on the safe side. I think you’ll find that no one in the other countries cares. You’ll find that when you come back, you’ll have your bags searched and they’ll ask you some questions, but that’s about it, then you’re done. The more you travel, the more you’ll get used to it.

  34. NorthEastPENN

    Even though I will be coming off my State’s registration (PA) (state conviction- not federal) this Oct I think I will stay put and not travel outside my state or even the country until the day I die.

    The laws seem so complicated about the registration requirements that attorney’s have problems interpreting the laws of travel to states and other country’s.

    One slip up on a planned travel to even another state can send you back to prison. Just not worth it to me.

    I’m staying put. Retired and working part time.

    This whole thing beat me down. Just not worth the chance.

    • John

      was thinking that also, im off now but decided to leave USA in a few months. I don’t understand the states inter-traveling and can put you back on but not going to live the rest of my life like that. going to get a sailboat and exit this place maybe just travel until I cant anymore. proboly going to put myself in some dangerous situations but I think it would be worth it have some freedoms, don’t see myself staying put and hoping they dont make some retroactive law, enough is enough

  35. Jackson

    This is kind of a general question. I hope this is the appropriate section to post it for my fellow international & domestic travelers. I plan to move to a state where my offense is not considered a child sex crime, therefore I will automatically be placed in tier 1 and my info won’t be publicized on their website. However, my current state has me placed on lifetime for the same offense (Of course my address and everthing else is publicized)
    The question is will I still be required to update my new state’s address with the registry in my old state? If I don’t, will I get in trouble with the feds? I don’t care if I get in trouble with my old state because I don’t plan on setting foot in this state ever again. I just don’t want some private snoopers like family watchdog or city-data getting hold of my new address from the old state and disseminating it on their websites…apps and alerts and all. You know the story. I want to stay anonymous in my new state of residence. So thank you. That’s my question and I hope someone can answer it.

    • M C

      Without knowing the state you are leaving and the state you are going to I’m not sure the question can be answered. I can say that if you are obligated to tell the state you are leaving, which you are likely required to do, they will probably put out a warrant for your arrest for non compliance when they can’t find you and you could be arrested on the warrant in your new state and extradited to your old one to stand trial for the non-compliance issue even if you registered properly in the new one.

    • Interested Party

      @Jackson

      To get the best help and answer you need to disclose what state you are in. Each state has its own rules on how to deal with those required to register when they leave the state.

      • Will Allen

        Why would the state matter? He’ll have to tell the state where he is moving. If not, they will likely issue a felony warrant and extradite him.

        He should Register a temporary address in the new state. Then, move to that address. If he later moves from there or establishes additional residences, he surely has no obligation to tell the old state that. If it were me, I’d establish a second residence about a week after moving.

        Wage war on Registry Nazis. Deliver real world consequences to them today.

    • Don’t tread on me

      It depends upon which state you live in now. Some states will never remove you no matter what. Other states will remove you when you go in to tell them you are moving out of state. When you get your new address in your new state, you are required to report that you are moving out of state. You must tell them your new address. If you simply move without telling them it is a felony for Failure To Report.

  36. Kim

    Well Good Morning and i have just returned from a 5 day cruise to Cabo from LA. I was relatively nervous but had done extensive research from others here and elsewhere on what to do pre travel and what to expect. Full disclosure: my incident was in 2007 and i have been off parole since 2012. Also: I am a woman and even though I believe in feminist ideologies, I also believe that women for obvious reasons do not have the same stigma attached as men (not relevant to this discussion but thought I would share). I have been on 3 cruises prior to 2016 and was denied Carnival after that with a letter and phone call and returned my money. This cruise was on Norwegian. I gave the 21 day notice “over the phone” to my registering agency and she did not ask for anything but the dates and destination. All she said was thank you and ill “put this in the computer”. I didnt ask anything else because another person here had mentioned that we dont need to give our full life story or share too many details. OK, so getting on the ship was no problem. I have a passport in my maiden name but chose to use my Calif ID and my birth certificate, as I am married and that name obviously is my Legal name now. NO problems boarding. 2 days in, I get a call from the assistant someone saying that they failed to get my proper travel documents upon boarding and would need to retrieve them and make copies. Keep in mind, I knew this was BS. I was quite irritated but I also know the cruise line itself doesnt truly care, this is Angel Watch or whoever confused. So the cruise line was really, really nice. They acted like they knew nothing, anyway. The Weird part was the cruise line said because my passport was my True traveling document that I would have to change my name on-board to my maiden name. I was livid because that is no longer my name and I felt like they were pressuring me to be someone im not, if that makes any sense but whatever I did it. So Cabo was no big deal, I got off and on without any problem whatsoever. But I knew, just knew they were going to F with me upon return. So getting off the ship, my name was on some manifesto. There was a gal waiting who escorted me down to customs like a criminal (mind you crime 13 years ago), and the officers looked at my passport (non-legal name) and asked me to go in the back and searched my luggage. I have to say Everyone the whole time was very nice, discreet, and polite. The officers were nice and joked that at least I skipped the line and this would only take a minute and Never asked me about the incident or was an RSO or anything like that. So the thing is I was aware that all of these things could happen and I was expecting it and I was with my husband so maybe that is why everyone was so respectful, Im not sure. But I know this small incident will NOT deter me from traveling. I dont always check this, if someone has any other questions. But I thank Everyone who shares their travel experience because it was super helpful to me on being hyper-aware of expectations.

    • Will Allen

      Congratulations on a relatively good travel experience. Glad it worked out for you.

      I’m also very happy that they really, really kept such a good eye on you such that it was impossible for you to molest children. I don’t know you but I can only guess that numerous children would have been harmed if the glorious, out-of-control nanny U.S. federal government had not prepared and monitored you. They, especially Satan Watch, did a great job preventing crime and I’m sure it didn’t distract them from any real crimes, which I hear don’t exist.

      On the positive side, look how many jobs you’ve helped give people. I mean, could those people actually have real, productive jobs if they weren’t doing this? Probably not so much. Have you heard how high our federal debt is these days?! Whoa! But personally, I’m very glad we are using that money on useful things.

      No American thinks this is acceptable. Wage war on Registry Nazis. I personally will deliver consequences to them in the real world today. The Registries will continue to harm everyone.

  37. Rob

    Hello All
    I just received my new passporr, a renewal, and it has NO MARKING. I’m very confused because I thought it would. I am going to Europe in March for 2 weeks. I hope there is no issue upon my return. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Just FYI I have 2 passports, EU and US and ONLY use my US one for returning to US.

    • David

      @ Rob: I visit France every September. I doubt you’ll encounter any problems at all. Four months ago, as I arrived with a marked U.S. passport, the French customs officer took my passport, scanned it, didn’t even look up at me and just handed it back saying “Okay.” That was it. She seemed very bored or tired and didn’t even ask me the standard questions, “Here on business or vacation? And how long will you be visiting France?” (Admittedly, 2 years ago, upon landing in France, my name was called over the P.A. system as my airplane was greeted by French police….. But that event – as I’ve recently learned – was because Angel Watch told France I was a figutive.🙄).
      Also, no one in Europe will know who you are and they will not know about your past, and, frankly, they don’t care. No one looks up your passport when you are renting a car or booking into a hotel. Yes, they will ask to see your passport, but they don’t look anything up – they usually just make a photocopy for their records.
      You can look forward to a new sense of freedom and anonymity during your vacation in Europe. Enjoy it!
      (But I DO encourage you to be an good example of a courteous and respectful visitor – it will benefit all of us.).
      When you return to the U.S., be prepared for U.S Customs officers to direct you to secondary review – it’s their standard procedure. Typically, they just ask a few simple questions: “Is this your correct home address? What countries did you visit? Why were you there?” That’s usually it. Though occasionally they’ll play their stupid games like asking “Have you ever been arrested?”, “Do you know why you were directed to secondary?”, etc. Just be courteous and direct. Don’t say anything more than required. (Like dealing with typical bullies or jerks, if you don’t engage with them, they get bored and move you along.)
      Have a wonderful and safe trip!
      (Last tip – completely unrelated: Keep your wallet in your front pocket when traveling – there are, unfortunately, pickpockets who prey on unsuspecting tourists…. especially on the Paris Metro.) 😊

  38. David

    @ Rob: Be sure to submit your 21-day advance travel notification. And keep one or two copies of the form with you when you are travelling because it is especially helpful to have it on hand when you are going through U.S. Customs upon your return to the U.S.

    • Will Allen

      Thank you for your very interesting and helpful advice. But perhaps People Forced to Register should be less accommodating?

      I get that carrying copies of your pariah papers would help a person personally. But are we all looking for the easiest path? Or the moral path?

      Would it look better if PFRs showed up at customs all contrite and remorseful with their pariah papers at the ready or if they showed up with no papers ever? What would be the best expectation to establish?

      Everyone seems fairly happy with helping establish that all of this is acceptable.

      • Political Prisoner

        Remember the Nazis required people to carry papers for permission to travel.

        • Will Allen

          Oh, I remember. Maybe others don’t care.

          “Show me your papers!” doesn’t belong in an actual free country. Good thing Amerika isn’t, I guess.

        • TS

          @political prisoner

          Requiring and advising are two different things. There’s no requirement here but advising by others, unless you count the passport requirement which then everyone is guilty. However, travel papers have been long needed before Hitler arrived.

      • David

        @ Will Allen: I understand your desire to be resistent all the time and in every way. But I’m not sure being resistant with LEOs or U.S. Customs (who are – like good Nazis -merely folowing orders) would do anyone any good. They do not write the laws – they merely endeavor to enforce them.
        If you want to make change, you have to work at the level of the law’s creation.
        (Besides, after getting off a long overseas flight, one typically just wants to get home. Engaging with the mall cops isn’t going to benefit anyone.)

    • TS

      @Rob

      Don’t forget other copies placed in other places where we’ve advised here too.

      @Will Allen

      It’s not appeasing the govt, but easing the traveling person’s experience. They could travel with their passport only and be ok when they’ve done their notification. But hey, why make things easy for traveler? Making them look frustrated with the traveler’s proof is a beautiful thing.

      • Will Allen

        Yes, I know, and I doubt that the big government employees care if it would take them 4 hours to process a PFR versus 1 hour. But that is not the point. The point is never to do anything that makes it appear as if Registries are legitimate. That’s all.

        It is just like if I come home one day and a law enforcement criminal is sitting there waiting for me and asks where I have been. The easy path is just to answer. The correct path is to tell them it is none of their business.

        I just think the Registries should be rejected at every opportunity.

    • Rob

      Thanks David.
      I definitely will have copies with me. I never have an issue in the EU as I have an EU German passport that I use when I am there. The only issue I may have is coming home because of our wonderful US of A. My US passport was just renewed with NO MARKING. That’s my confusion , as I guessed it WOULD be marked. I guess I’ll see upon re-entry to the US. FYI my customs return will be at JFK in NY not LAX. I’ll let you know….

      • David

        @ Rob: Enjoy Europe!!
        (As for your unmarked U.S. Passport, don’t be too surprised if you receive a revocation notice in the mail 30-60 after you return home. It seems that it is the actual use of one’s passport to travel that triggers the DOS to review one’s passport status. [They aren’t going to waste effort revoking anyone’s passport if the person never uses it for international travel.] I travelled back and forth a couple times before I finally received DOS’s revocation letter. [DOS still owes me for the unused portion of my revoked passport….. won’t get that $$.😏])

  39. Axiom

    Going to Cape Town this summer. Anyone with experience traveling as a registrant to South Africa? Or any other African countries for that matter. I just don’t hear about that continent on this forum. I also heard Kigali Rwanda is nice.

  40. Jackson

    Thank you all for your feedback. I like Will Allen’s fine suggestion about first establishing residency at a temporary address in my new state and notifying my former state before moving on to establish a permanent address in my new state. That was part of my original plan anyways. To temporarily rent a room in Boston before buying a home in western Massachusetts where the cost of living is lower. But for now I am stuck in Wisconsin on lifetime GPS until my supervision is up in two years. Once that happens, the DOC will take the bracelet whenever I decide to leave this sorry state. Some of you may already know that a former AG of WI gave the state DOC the power to interpret each cp count as a separate offense. Because I was convicted on two counts (2 photos) I’m considered a repeat offender subject to lifetime registration with GPS on or off of supervision. But I’m not waiting around for our class action to sort things out.

    • @ Jackson

      Hey Jackson, two questions:

      1. WI Keeps you on their active list for life, right? How will moving to Mass help for you if you still have to keep registering with WI anyway?
      2. What class action suit do you refer to… a suit in Wisc? Any information on that you can offer? Thanks

    • M C

      @Jackson,

      I thought the US Supreme Court ruled that GPS tracking constituted a search and therefore such tracking was not constitutional. That said, it is my understanding that Wisconsin will require you to keep your address updated even out of state. From what I’ve heard, if you don’t update it, but otherwise register properly in the other state they will ultimately find you in the the federal NSOR system and send you a “friendly” letter reminding you that you are still required to update your WI registration and that you could be subject to criminal penalties by not doing so.

      • WI - WTF?

        Wait, what?? WI requires you to regularly update your Wisconsin Costco subscription information ….. even if you have moved out of the State?? How does that work if you are no longer a resident of Wisconsin …. You remain subject to their registration laws…. forever??
        And I wonder how other F’d-up states like Florida do NOT have a similar requirement – even as they retain us on their Florida State Registry forever & all eternity.

        • Scotus Save Us Now

          NY also requires you to update even after you leave… there was a court case a few years ago that escapes my memory but basically the court said “what if you move just across the border and live in NJ, NY people are still in danger you need to update”

        • M C

          I know of someone convicted in WI who moved to Ohio in a similar manner to ‘Jackson’. Updated WI and registered in OH. Moved later to somewhere else in OH and about a year later got this letter from the DOC reminding them that moving even if no longer a resident of WI still doesn’t change the requirement to update the WI registration when changes occur. This person was not subject to lifetime WI registration, just 15yr. Unlike FL however if the conviction is out of state and you register in WI you are delisted when you leave the state.

        • PK

          @Scotus

          Matter of Doe v O’Donnell
          2011 NY Slip Op 04804 [86 AD3d 238]
          June 9, 2011

      • TS

        @M C

        US v Jones (2012) SCOTUS is the case you are referring to WRT GPS on cars. Also, Carpenter v US (2018) SCOTUS is for tracking via cellphones which cannot be done without a warrant (side tidbit of same ilk).

  41. M C

    There is nothing really on RTAG about South Africa. However, if I were to guess, since it’s a former British colony it probably has alot of British legal influence in their legal system. And they do appear to have a Registry. That means it’s probably similar to UK travel.

    • Axiom

      Thanks I was really just interested if more people on this forum actually travel to South Africa but maybe its more of a destination for Europeans. I heard Cape Town is stunning and more modern and developed than most latin American countries that US citizens tend to travel to. Plus you don’t have the language barrier in southern Africa.Yes South Africa has commonwealth status (a leftover from British colonization) but so do a lot of other African and Caribbean countries that still allow registrants in. So yeah, it would be nice to know if more registrants are looking at Africa.

  42. Mr.tellit

    Being charged with 2 photos and calling it a repeat offense is as RETARDED a NOTION as a Bank Robber going out of a bank with one money bag and then going for a second trip calling it a New Crime or HABITUAL OFFENDER!
    Definetly the LAND OF THE SEE AND HOME OF THE DEPRAVED!
    “SEE …DEPRAVED””

  43. Jackson

    Thank you all! That’s why I love this forum. It has fine people with a wealth of information. I noticed some varying opinion on this issue, but here is what I summize from all the responses. When I move to Massachusetts, I definitely have to register my 1st address with Mass and my former state of Wisconsin. But if I move to a 2nd addresss, I definetely have to register the addresss with Mass, but not right away with WI. However, down the road, Wisconsin may send me a threatening letter telling me to update my 2nd address in Mass. But this leads back my original question. Will I get in trouble with the feds or the state of WI? I don’t plan on stepping foot in this crappy state ever again, but if my evasion is an exraditable offense, that’s a different story.
    There was this case a while back where a former WI lifetime resident moved to Connecticut, but Wisconsin still required him to pay the $100 annual price club fee. The plaintiff sued WI but he lost because the reasoning was he was not held criminally liable for not paying the fee as well as other Wisconsiin RSO lifetime rules such as restrictions for being around a minor. The court concluded the plaintiff couldn’t possibly be expected to follow every rule of his former state while living in his new state which has its own rules. Now I still don’t know if this covers updating addresses with that state. Thank you all.

    • Will Allen

      I probably shouldn’t even comment because I know nothing about it, but hey, that doesn’t stop a lot of people, lol.

      I cannot for the life of me figure out how a state could force you to follow their laws after you leave UNLESS you were convicted of a crime there and what they are forcing you to follow was part of your legal punishment. Not some new “civil regulation”, but part of the legal sentence of a crime. It does seem like a state could sentence you to probation for the rest of your life and that you must always tell them where you live. Short of that, I cannot fathom how a different state’s laws could affect you. Maybe someone can say something definitive.

      Message to Registry Supporters/Terrorists: Sic semper tyrannis. “Let’s see how you like it when the fighting is brought to you.”

      • M C

        @Will Allen, I agree with you in the sense that if you aren’t in the state anymore, they lack jurisdiction and therefore it may not be enforceable. Me personally, I would push the envelope and refuse to update WI when not under their jurisdiction and make that argument if they charged me with something and then we would know how enforceable it is. I can’t however consciously give someone else advice that might get them arrested. Most of us lack funds and / or the ability to mount a viable pro se defense. So I don’t want to put someone else into that position.

    • M C

      @Jackson, as far as federal, the way I read the statute is that you only have to register and update your registration “in each jurisdiction [where you] reside, are employed, or attend school”. I also point out that you must “knowingly” fail to register to be in violation of the federal registration laws. Therefore, if you update your registration in MA and stop updating in WI I would think you would at the very least have the affirmative defense of not knowing if the feds tried to claim you to be in violation of the federal failure to register law for not continuing to update in WI. Further, I don’t think you shouldn’t have to under the federal law anyway if you no longer live, work or go to school in WI as long as you follow the federal law for where you do these things. That said, there’s no way of knowing if some overzealous federal law enforcement agent might claim you to be in violation for not updating WI. Keep in mind that this is my interpretation as well. There’s no guarantee I’m right.

      When it comes to WI, if the person I know of who went to OH is any indication they would send you a letter asking you to comply and outline your potential criminal penalties for not doing so. They didn’t just automatically try slap on charges or anything like that. If you didn’t comply after getting a letter it could be a different story. Again though, I can’t guarantee this and the state officials could always find you in violation for not updating to begin with even if they sent someone else a letter first. Hope this helps.

      • Will Allen

        Interesting points. Additionally, if WI or any other state was telling me that I had to Register, I would do so until/unless I got an agreement with them in writing that said I did not have to. I’ve been successful in getting similar agreements without even needing to get an attorney involved. I would start by sending them a letter that basically just said, “I Register in state XY, please cite the state or federal law which dictates that I must Register in your P.O.S. state.”

        Another thing I failed to mention is couldn’t you end up in a situation where you had to notify many states? A person could easily move through 10 different states through some number of years. Do you have to keep them all updated?

        This actually reminds me of a situation that I used to incessantly ridicule the LECs about in the state where I live. They had laws where multiple LEC agencies had to be re-registered with annually (or more often). I thought it was hilarious that supposedly it was super critical that they share the information with the public to keep them fake “safe” and yet they were too incompetent to even share it among themselves. I used to ridicule every LEC I saw about that. The criminal regime gave that up fairly quickly.

        So why would you ever have to tell multiple jurisdictions anything? With the computing power available these days you’d have to be pretty thoroughly incompetent to “need” that. So maybe it’s just for harassment?

        Message to Registry Supporters/Terrorists: Sic semper tyrannis. “Let’s see how you like it when the fighting is brought to you.”

        • M C

          @Will Allen, as far as I’m aware there aren’t any states that require updates when you leave the state unless you were originally convicted there though someone can correct me if im wrong. I know a bit about WI because I live there but I’m not a registrant anymore at least for now. I’ve stated somewhere before but my original conviction is in MN and I have received a Judicial but not executive record expungement. It seems the Fed and many states do not recognize this type of expungement for registration purposes but it still has some benefits. If either of these were SORNA / Walsh states id still be registered. I briefly registered in WI and then moved back to MN and later back to WI after registration ended. I have a letter from WI DOC saying I didn’t have to register when I moved there the second time as I wanted to be sure before I did. In any case, there is no requirement to keep updating WI if the conviction wasn’t there except to notify when you are no longer in the state. Another thing that’s strange is MN registration is 10 years except for aggravated or repeat offenders which is lifetime. Further, unless you are deemed highly likely to reoffend (MN tier 3) you are not subject to community notification or on the public database. It’s used for law enforcement only. The worst of the worst offenders end up with what amounts to lifetime civil commitment however, which has landed the state into issues in federal court. You have to keep updating MN registration as you move even in other states. The 10 year registration is restarted for certain other offenses. If you are subject to registration in another state you must register in MN based on that states registration length not MN. Further leaving MN for say Florida and coming back would possibly change you to a lifetime registration even in MN.

        • Tom

          Will,
          I am in the process of trying this with New York due to really good job offer. However, they won’t even tell you if you have to register until AFTER you move there and establish residence. That’s when you have to go through their Sora board. My STate is in the process of removing me. If NY decides to make me register for additional 20 years, even if my state removes me (youthful offender no conviction but still required to register ), why on earth would I move there????
          That is the is the whole purpose of inquiring BEFORE relocating. I’m trying to get a NY attorney involved, but the fee is RIDICULOUS!

        • Will Allen

          @M C:

          Well, that is all eminently sensible and easy. Good reason to respect our criminal, out-of-control, nanny big governments even more. I’m sure they’ve saved so many children.

          To celebrate that, I’ll be stopping work for this week quite soon now and will be out and about ensuring that the Registries are much worse than just worthless, as I nearly always do all weekends. I’d encourage everyone to do the same and have a great weekend.

          Message to Registry Supporters/Terrorists: Sic semper tyrannis. “You think you can be ruthless? Let’s see how you like it when the fighting is brought to you.”

        • Will Allen

          @Tom:

          Well, what can you say? It’s just all one gigantic pile of stupid that protects literally no one. Only fools dream otherwise.

          It is giving a lot of pathetic suckers jobs though. What else would those people do?

          I’d encourage you to understand that it is nothing but a bunch of scumbag harassers who are just little control freaks who cannot mind their own business or leave other families alone. They think it is their right to interfere with your life and reduce the quality of it. So I’d treat them like the terrorists that they are. Good luck.

          Message to Registry Supporters/Terrorists: Sic semper tyrannis. “You think you can be ruthless? Let’s see how you like it when the fighting is brought to you.”

        • M C

          @Tom, I took a look briefly at what you are talking about. While as you have suggested, the board makes the final determination. It appears that a conviction or conviction for attempt to commit one of the registrable offenses would subject you to registration requirements in New York and that would be what the board uses as a guide to determine your registration requirement. You say you have not been convicted but are required to register in another state. What exactly does that mean? Did you receive some sort of continuance for dismissal or have a withheld adjudication of some sort to prevent you from actually having a conviction on your record? If so, that would certainly complicate the decision making process in NY. More than likely they would then look at whether what you did actually occurred and if so if it would be a conviction in their state for a registrable offense. I know for a fact that there are many states where, if you are not convicted but you have received a withheld adjudication you still have to register if you move there EVEN IF your registration requirement is removed from where you are now. If a SORNA state you would absolutely have to do this because federal SORNA says you must register even “If adjudication of guilt has been withheld, where (1) a plea, finding, or admission of facts established the petitioner’s guilt and (2) a judge ordered some form of punishment, penalty, or restraint on his or her liberty.” The larger purpose of the NY board however appears to be so that you can be assigned a risk level which determines the length you must register for AND if the offense is disclosed to the public. While there can be no guarantee, it’s likely that if you are required to register in New York you would be assigned the lowest risk level and not subject to public notification. So I guess then it depends on the trade off. You may be very limited where you would be able to move or get a job except for your state of conviction even with a non-conviction. In that case, being on a non-public registry and a having good income may outweigh the benefits of staying put and taking what you can get there for work. You’d have to decide that for yourself.

    • Lucky

      2014 Mueller v Raemish. The plaintiffs lost the appeal and they still had to pay the $100 annual fee. However athough the state of Wisconsin sent letters threatening the plaintiffs with prosecution for evading other WISC RSO restrictions, and the state still insisted it had lifetime jurisdiction over the plaintiffs, the state conceded that enforcement of the state’s registration statue (including address updates) was very unlikely if the plaintiffs did not reside in Wisconsin. That convinced the court of appeals that the plaintiffs were under no threat of sanctions for failing to obey Wisconsin’s registry law, therefore the lawsuit lacked standing.

      • E

        The WI registration statute is quite old and when they wrote it referenced WI’s “strong victim protections” a lot. Basically they said, any VICTIM of a registerable offense in WI has the right to know where their perpetrator lives forever, regardless of in the state or not. Weird right? That becomes evident not in the statute but in underlying email exchanges about the drafting of the statute, some of which can be found online.

        Later they added a clause that people moving to WI with an out of state conviction need only register in WI until they move away again. So there IS a statute that deals with deregistration… just not for any offense committed in the state. So ridiculous.

      • E @ Lucky

        Lucky, are you implying or stating that the COA in Raemisch basically said that out of state registrants with WI convictions needn’t be worried (and should stop complying)?? I wonder whether the plaintiff was removed/stopped registering but then would be listed as non compliant, including on the federal registry?

        • Lucky

          Both plaintiffs stayed compliant in their new states of Connecticut and Florida. So the feds were happy. The state of Wisconsin knew they couldn’t enforce their own rules like telling an out of state plaintiff not to photograph children or prosecuting them for not updating addresses.

  44. Tom

    @ M.C

    Yes, i received whats called the Holmes Youthful Trainee Act. The case is dismissed, and no judgement of conviction is entered, however, you still have to register if you were sentenced prior to October 1, 2004. If you were sentenced after that date, then you don’t have to register. The state also took away some of the offenses of which you would no longer qualify for the Youthful trainee act, after October 1, 2004. But anyway, you cannot find me on a background check, nor could you call the court. They would tell you there is no record.

    However, when an employee searches the registry, well there it is. It shows ‘Convicted’ on the website, but I do not have a conviction. Its pretty much untruthful. The good thing is that when employers see this, they are BAFFLED, once they see my court papers that says “Sealed, non-public, and no conviction”. Doesn’t make since to them, therefore, of all the searches on the registry, yes employers ask, but once i show them my ‘Non-Public’ record, which specifically says ‘dismissed’, ‘no judgment of conviction’, I get hired. So it is a benefit, but I would like to in the future be able to travel internationally. I have not gotten my passport yet, because of all the stories I hear on here. Why would i want to put myself through embarrassment on a plane, or even on a cruise (although i boarded carnival in 2014 and 2015, with no issues, NOR secondary inspection upon return). Rather odd, as my information is clearly publicly listed on the website. But as far as a passport, yeah, I’m good for now. No thanks

    • M C

      @Tom,

      I’m pretty sure this is the same as a withheld adjudication for the purposes of federal SORNA laws. It fits squarely into the legal definition of a withheld adjudication or a stay of adjudication or whatever else the courts there want to actually call it. I’ve seen several different legal terms for it but its still a withheld adjudication.

  45. David

    This thread used to discuss International Travel…. but I guess a lot has changed.🤔

    • Gralphr

      Yes, it has deviated away from its original intent. I wish more people who have successfully moved overseas would tell their stories so those who want o do the same would at least have an idea of what they would have to do.

    • Lucky

      Unfortunately the world is shrinking for places registrants can travel. East Asia is out. Europe may be next after ETIAS begins.Now I wont consider buying property overseas if there’s a likely chance I wouldn’t be able to get back into the country. So why not search for that slice of heaven in America where at minimum we can stay off the radar.If an opportunity comes up for international travel, I’ll take it, but for now we all have to be realistic. This country will try to keep us here thru whatever means inclusive of lying and scaring foreign governments.

      • David

        My experience is that the French government tends to ignore the US Marshal Service’s “green notices” that they receive from the US to indicate a traveling registrant will be visiting their country. Typically*, I have received no additional scrutiny from French customs when I have arrived in their country, just the usual questions: “Here on business or pleasure?” and “How long will you be staying?”

        (*I did receive extra attention once when the US Marshal Service’s green notice incorrectly identified me as a “fugitive”.

  46. Bill

    I’m assuming this can bar Registrants who need medical procedure from entering as well. Or see a sick parent or loved one residing in that country.

    This is so wrong for so many reasons…

  47. M C

    @Lucky,

    I was unaware of this specific decision so I did go and read it. It seems that the WI DOC has acknowledged that the registration requirements for someone no longer in the state is unenforceable but it seems clear that they still intend to attempt to enforce it. The court made no decision on the enforceability except to say that someone who no longer is in the state lacks standing to challenge the $100 registration fee and registration requirements and that the fee is not considered a fine which would, if a fine, be punitive.

  48. M C

    @Bill,

    A few, but not all of these places that are off limits to RSO will make exceptions on “humanitarian grounds.” So with a sick family member, you may be granted an exception. Canada is one for example who almost always will make this exception but you may have to specifically ask for it to be made and be able to provide proof.

  49. M C

    @LUCKY,

    I don’t THINK but I certainly can’t guarantee that EITAS would create a complete bar to RSO travel to Schengen countries. It seems that if green notices are sent now and they are not baring entry there would be no change under EITAS. i do believe however that EITAS could make it more difficult. The questions about criminal history have been set https://www.etias.us/security-questions-in-the-etias-form/. It looks like they set the bar for EITAS and sex offenses against children at 10 years as part of the questions they will ask. Therefore, you do not have to answer in the affirmative if the offense is more than 10 years old. They appear to utilize only their databases for data verification so if you have not committed a crime there your denial is extremely unlikely after the 10 years. If its less than 10 years, maybe you get denied. Either way, you do have an appeal right if you are denied and I suspect that appealing with the right spin would get most RSO’s access.

    • Lucky

      Thanks for your optimism, but your bit of news makes it even worse for me. My reasoning for believing I’ll be denied is because of my time incarcerated. ETIAS sets that time limit at 3 years or more for denied entry. I served exactly 3 years. So it’s a “maybe or maybe not” situation for me. Now that I know that 10 years had to have passed since conviction, I wouldn’t be able to walk on a plane to Europe after I’m off probation in a few years. I’d still have to wait another 4 years until my conviction is 10 years old, then there’s no certainty I’ll get into the Schengen zone because of my 3 years confinement. However, I still can try surrounding European countries like Turkey, Bosnia, Montenegro or hell, even Ubekistan!

    • E

      Good example of how Europe refuses to be drawn into the panic around people with a conviction for a sexual offense. There is sanity in the world… just not here.

      • Count D.I.K.ula

        “Good example of how Europe refuses to be drawn into the panic around people with a conviction for a sexual offense.”

        Don’t believe it. It has gotten steadily worse in Europe, especially since the Dutroux murders in Belgium. Now we see The Netherlands actively banning speech advocating for lower ages of consent. Several people are being prosecuted for simple speech, right now. Even the U.S. doesn’t have restrictions on speech.

  50. David

    ⭐ More information about ETIAS under new topic/section “International Travel 2020”.⭐

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