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Certificate of Rehabilitation

The first comment below is a very detailed description of the Road to a Certificate of Rehabilitation. We believe it deserves its own post. Thanks to the poster for taking the time to share.

Although this unfortunately is not an option for many (PC 290.5), hopefully it will help someone.

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Can i get a cor to take away my requirement to register? I was convicted 261.5(d) statuatory. I had to serve 1 year in prison. Thank you. Im 19 female..long story but i want to know my options thank you.

Sara, was it felony or misdemeanor? Check 1203.4 pc

As Curiouser suggested, check 1203.4, record clearance. Also check to see if it was a felony, can it be reduced to a misdemeanor, then petition or apply for removal from internet disclosure. Your public defender can help if you don’t have the financial means. Are you currently on probation or parole? Last of all, don’t give up.

I was told its wobbler and i pled to it as a felony. Thank you all for the help

Here is my comment – I am not a lawyer.

Here is a list of all wobblers in California

It is my understanding that if you are convicted of a wobbler as a felony and the sentence does NOT include a prison term (actual or suspended), then it can be reduced to a misdemeanor under PC 17(b). If you plead to a wobbler as a felony and the sentence DOES include a prison term (actual or suspended), the felony CANNOT be reduced.

The first step of the COR process is to dismiss the conviction under PC 1203.4. There are a handful of offenses that are disqualified from this relief. A felony conviction of PC 261.5(d) is one of them. Since you plead to it as a felony AND you served time in prison you cannot reduce this felony, and with that, are ineligible for dismissal / expungement. Without that you cannot obtain a COR.

So it looks like, under current law, there is no way for you to get registration relief.

Having said all this, though, something is off.

PC 261.5(d) reads ” Any person 21 years of age or older who engages in an act of unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor who is under 16 years of age is guilty of either a misdemeanor or a felony””. If you are 19 now or you were 19 at the time of offense – either way you were under 21 and as such not convictable (is that a word?) under PC 261.5(d). Are you sure it is not PC 261.5(a)? That would be a whole different scenario.

So either you misread your paperwork or you plead guilty to something that could not apply to you. You should talk to an attorney.

something is off. Maybe she meant jail and not prison? But something is definitely off if she’s 19 and was charged with something that shouldn’t pertain to her.

I was awarded a COR yesterday! Took me over a year but it happened! I can’t remember where I read it at ( either CA Business Code or CA Penal Code) but it said that one a COR was granted your criminal history could not be used against you for employment. I can’t seem to find this code. This is the main reason why I want a COR, but would really like to read the actual code on this. I did find the code that states licensing agencies can’t use your criminal history against you. Can anyone help me?

My convictions were forgery and embezzlement. I got the COR for employment purposes to work in the health care field.
Thank you

I received my certificate of rehabilitation for one felony. How do I get a pardon? It is suppose to be automatic or do I need to file something?

Don’t just take my word for it but from I have heard…

When a COR is granted…there is something automagic that happens. As in…a pardon request is generated and sent to the Governor for consideration.

You’re more likely to win the lotto than have the pardon granted. The last person to get a pardon for anything would be an SO. Bad for business.

HUGE congrats on the COR!!! No longer required to register…correct? So long Price Club!

I was scrolling through these comments, and it seems like a lot of you guys didn’t read the comment from Chance. It’s pretty simple actually. Anyone can apply for a COR, but the real question everyone has is, if after you are awarded a COR, Will you be removed from the registry? Well it’s simple, look under 290.5, and if your penal code falls under that category, if IN THE FUTURE, you commit those crimes, you will never get off. Well, as a 243.4(a) can get you off the internet, you still have to register, unless of course your judge, if in LA grants a COR and clearly specifies that you no longer have to register pursuant to section 290.5. Then you or your paralegal, or attorney will send that info to DOJ, and then DOJ sends you a letter stating your registration is terminated. Now as far as a pardon goes, once you get your COR granted, it’s an automatic application for a pardon. Doesn’t mean you will get it. I learned something interesting.. After you receive your COR, which you have to wait, for the most part, 10 years from the time you were released from prison.. According to the governors office, to get a pardon, it has to be 10 years from the time you were released from parole. Which was very strange when I got that letter, so I have to wait til the end of February this year to finish the pardon. They said it will be reactivated once the 10 years from parole release date is completed. This is something I’m sure many of you are not aware of. I know there are a lot of discrepancies on what to do, or do you qualify? Well, you really can do this on your own, like I said in my posts above. Hey, it worked for me. Not only was my COR granted, but I never have to worry about walking into a police station to register every time I move! That’s a huge relief! Even when I took the letter into the police station, the cop said “wow, you have been exonerated, well done!” If you get this, you will know exactly how I feel! It’s an amazing feeling! It can happen, just have patience, and do your due diligence. Oh, and read every post on here before asking questions that have already been answered for you. It’s all here in black and white. There is really no need to be confused about it. Every county is the same, however each judge may use their own discretion. Good luck!

I received my COR in january 2017 and I still haven’t received anything for the pardon. Do you know how long it can take to get the paperwork for the next step? I have already passed the 10 years of being off probation.
Any advice is appreciated. Thank you.

Just plain me

I received my COR in january 2017 and I still haven’t received anything for the pardon. Do you know how long it can take to get the paperwork for the next step? I have already passed the 10 years of being off probation.
Any advice is appreciated. Thank you.

Hi Bec,

First, congrats on getting your COR.. I got mine in 2014 and was released from parole in 2016 and here we are in 2018 and nothing from the Govna. It doesn’t really matter tho because the main reason why you would need a pardon is to be removed from the registry, unless like me, when my COR was granted, the judge also stated that I no longer have to register pursuant to pc 290.5. However, my situation was quite different because the judge tried to amend it stating she made a mistake, in which case I had 2 attorneys walk into her court room and state she had no jurisdiction to make a Nunc Pro Tunc order, in which the court only was able to change a “clerical” order, and not amend the actual order. In fact, the Attorney General had only 60 days to appeal the judge’s decision but they made no such attempt, therefore the original order stands. I had a PC220 and 243.4(a). In most cases according to 290.5, the law changed in 2014 adding charges to NOT allow removal of the registry without a pardon. So basically I got lucky and there was nothing they could do about it, not then, not now, nor ever. So if I do in fact receive a pardon, then great, if not, I already got what I needed, and I’m not planning on running for office or carry a gun, which I could if I got a pardon, but I think I can live without those things. I hope I answered your questions or anyone else’s for that matter.

Hi justplainme

I was granted a COR and was relieved of duty of having to register on 2/22/18 (same day as your comment). I have a question. I am still listed on the Megan’s Law website. I plan to contact the CA DOJ tto get an update and move them along so I cyan be removed.

How long did it take for you to be removed from the registry by the DOJ? Did you have to contact them?

Hey AC,
That’s awesome!! I had a paralegal send in the letter to DOJ and it was very precise, so before you contact DOJ I would contact Chance Oberstein to see if he can help you do that but you should do it ASAP and it only took me about a month to get a response letter. On a side note, I got approved to take the contractors license test, so something good is coming from this!

My fiancé was convicted of a 266(2) over 25 years ago and has not committed another 290 offense since he was only 18 at the time would he qualify for a COR ? He is on parole right now though for failure to register.


I received a COR in Sacramento County. Was on the 290 for a misdemeanor 647.6. I performed a life scan about 2 months after receiving COR. 290 was still listed and the COR did not show up. I sent in a Copy of the COR describing the I was still on the 290. DOJ sent me a termination letter of the 290 registration about a week later.

The COR does not need to spell out that you are to be removed from the registration. As long as it is granted.

I highly recommend anyone going for a COR to hire an experienced lawyer and to not take any chances of doing it yourself for a 290 termination.


As I’d like to understand the COR process, What is “Life Scan?” please..

It’s actually “Live Scan”, and it’s electronic fingerprinting.

About “live scans” from my experience:

Before I left Calif two years ago I needed a copy of my Calif criminal record for the next State. But Sacramento wants to know it’s real YOU who is asking ! Now in the olden days you went down to your local cop station, and for a fee (Around $20) they physically fingerprinted you on two separate cards. They then give the cards to you. They keep no copies. Then you mail both cards along with your request letter (And a check too, with their fee) up to Sacktown.

NOW, however, they want you to go to a place that digitally does the same thing ! So I went to a UPS store. Not all the UPS stores do it ; they’ll direct you to one close by that does. BUT, they (UPS) want $50 to do it ! But I still had to mail a letter with a check…

Thank you Paul and Two States East…

Just received my certificate of rehab, although I’m happy for getting it, it still doesn’t relieve me of registering or appearing on Megan’s website without a pardon from the governor. I will continue to be positive and hope in the end I do get that pardon. As far as what I had to do to get to this point pretty much the same as the original post, I hired a lawyer first thing he had to do was reduce original charge to misdemeanor and then expunge from their which he did. Once convictions where expunged he filed for COR with the county, I then received a packet from the local bureau of investigations in which they asked for a lot of info such as work history, finances, debt, cars owned, and also asked for six reference/character letters from friends/ coworkers or family and to provide them with three numbers of people for them to call to budge for you, I did all that sent it back within two weeks. Two weeks later setup an interview with the investigator who was taking care of my case for COR. Prior to the interview I spoke with my lawyer as to what expect, he told to me to be honest but do not get into specifics of the case. So the day of the interview he started asking me question into which he already knew the answers for, I suppose he was trying to catch me in a lie. Right after he asked to talk to him about what happened to go back and tell him everything, I told him I didn’t feel comfortable and that I was advised by my attorney not to talk about it, his demeanor changed immediately and said that it wouldn’t look good in front of the judge but I didn’t budge. Long story short my attorney later told me that he knew of a case where an attorney advised his client to be open and talk about his case, the investigator ended up persuading him into opening to the point where they where able to open up a new case and eventually got 8 years in prison. So I guess me not opening up to the investigator didn’t really matter in front of the judge, he approved my COR and now I just wait for a pardonz

Congrats on getting your COR as well as sharing your experience. Every bit of information helps!

Although, I thought the COR stopped you from registering, which means you aren’t required to be on any list or website?

Originally that’s what I thought myself but my particular offense does not qualify for it even though it’s a no contact offense. It’s a long story but I should have never listened to my public defender, just like many others on here I assume, I was railroaded into pleading to something out of fear and being naive about the law

I have COR for 18 years, now and I am still caught in the Meg Web.

Perhaps you could contact the DOJ yourself and save some $$$?

All the contact related info on the letter my attorney received from the DOJ regarding the correction request they sent on my behalf is below….

Record Review Unit (916)227-3835

Kamala D. Harris
Attorney General

Violent Crime Information Center
Sex Offender Tracking Program
P.O. Box 903387
Sacramento, CA 94203-3870

Maybe this info will be useful

I love how it’s called the “Violent Crime Information Center” when they list people on the site that were guilty of “no contact’ offenses.

Yay yay MS…the ‘violent crime….’ heading to their p.o. box,
Is that heading also on the registry website..?

Anyone not having to register… Does it have Violate Crime Information Center anywhere in this cal state web site registry.??????

“Violent crime?” I was committed a non-violent, no contact crime. Yet I am managed by the “Violent Crime Information Center?”

Kamala Harris and her office is/are a bunch of overpaid crooks who misrepresent facts. It concerns me that Harris will likely be California’s next U.S. Senator.

It has nothing to do with California. Many states consider even nonviolent nocontact offenses a violent crime. Here in Wisconsin, when a person is convicted of possession of CP, the courts bans them from owning body armor or firearms due to the “violent nature” of the offense. Doesn’t matter if no contact was involved. At least in California, they’re just lumping your name into some bureaucratic agency that has the word ‘violence’ in their heading. But in Wisconsin, certain nocontact offenses involving children are actually considered “violent” under written statue

Which state are you in? In cali I thought COR’s meant you were off the list and no longer had a duty to register, otherwise what’s the point?

I think you might want to hire an attorney to see about getting removed from Megan’s Law website since you were granted a COR. Left to the OOJ…you will be listed forever on their awesome site even if you’re not supposed to be. I hired an attorney ( to get removed from the site after my felony was reduced to a misdemeanor. I was supposed to be removed from the site automagically but wasn’t. After 3 months of waiting for the DOJ to update my records and remove me from the site on their own (how silly of me) I hired recordgone to submit the paperwork to the DOJ requesting an “administrative update”. The DOJ acknowledged the request (by mail to my attorney) and I’m no longer listed. Best $750 I have ever spent.

Since you were granted a COR…you are no longer going down to the PD and registering correct? I’m assuming so. Now you just need to pursue getting yourself off the site.

BTW…the person that signed the letter that my attorney received from the DOJ…

Arturo Rodriguez, Manager
Sex Offender Tracking Program

According to my attorney my particular offense 220pc does not qualify for getting off website or stop registering only a pardon will do that, the purpose of the COR is to actually be able to apply for a pardon.

What county are you in, Stumped?

San Joaquin


I would say you’re half right. Look at my comments above. I had a pc220 as well and got a COR, and the same company who filed the paperwork also sent the letter to DOJ and I was removed. Mainly cuz the COR stated I no longer have to register pursuant to 290.5. Based on that and what the judge put down, the DOJ removed me. now if I get a pardon, it will be for bragging rights and whatever else a pardon is good for. In 2014, new charges were added to the list of unremovable offenses in pc 290.5…

Yes I am in cali

Your offense does qualify for relief of registration. From what I understand of the CoR and relief of registration is that you first need to have the following:

17b (unless it was already a misdemeanor)
1203.4 expungement

Once those are completed, you file for a CoR and if granted, no longer need to register. Seems you did all that.

Something isn’t right. I would look into it because you should be relieved from registering.

There would only be one reason why you are registering. Did you do state prison time? If so, then you cannot be relieved of the duty to register without a governor’s pardon.


Not true. Even SOME select offenses are eligible for relief from registration with a Certificate of Rehabilitation EVEN if sentenced to state prison.

If you qualify for the CoR and awarded it, then you no longer have to register.

Otherwise, what is the point of the CoR to a registrant who already has had 17b and 1203.4 awarded?

Sorry Rambo but you’re misinformed.

According to the 1203.4 penal code, one cannot get an expungement if you served state prison and parole. ONLY probation. You can still get a CoR but you will not be eligible for relief without first having the 1203.4 Then there are some select sex offenses that could be probationary, but will never be granted an expunge nor a CoR.

Under 4852.01, you could only have served probation not state parole if convicted of a sex offense.

I still think the original poster should be relieved from registration. If he has an expungement and a subsequent CoR, he should have been relieved.

I would love it if that would be my case again my lawyer said for my specific offense I need to get a pardon to relieve me from registering

Look up the law, only specific offenses are not eligible mine being one of those if you know any different and can guide me in that direction where it says I don’t i would appreciate it

You’re right. I looked at the law ( PC290.5(b)(1) ). You are not eligible for relief of registration unless you have a full governor’s pardon.

I was referencing PC 4852.01 and which PCs were not eligible for a CoR. Though your PC was eligible for CoR, it isn’t eligible for relief from registration. I’m sorry if I gave you false hope. I do wish you the best of luck on the pardon.

Although Gov. Jerry Brown is one of the most Liberal Governors in all of the United States, I have heard more than once on this forum that Gov. Brown has never indeed granted a “Pardon” to any SO.

Now that may have changed recently, but we do know that it would be very rare to actually see a “Pardon” of a RSO in Calif.


Thank you, as of now I will take what I can get, it’s kind of stupid in a way, I have been granted the COR which means that it’s an automatic application for a pardon and in which the COR states that the court recommends the pardon, all my chargers have been expunged as well so according to my lawyer I can legally state I have not been convicted.


How long did it take for you to get your packet after your COR?


There is no packet after COR. It’s been almost 4 years after I have got my COR granted and the governor does not send you anything, but you can call or email them to make sure they have your application on file. There is no set time. But if you got a COR that removed you from the Internet, then a pardon is not really necessary. I hope this helps… so just relax and go on with your life and eventually you will here something

I have also applied for a pardon from Gov Brown but I have been told that he will never issue a pardon for a sex offender. Good luck with yours…

I’ve read the thread a few hundred times about the importance of letters – but I’ve never been able to find any good examples (either through the dead link in this thread or anywhere else online). Does anyone have any letters (written either by the person asking for the COR or as testimonials from friends/colleagues) that they could share?

I just wanted to post here because I got my Certificate of Rehabilitation!! Thanks be to God!

Thank you also to the ACSOL community for your great information and support. Because of this website, and this forum in particular, I was finally able to get my case off the ground.

This forum was also where I found out about my attorney, Chance Oberstein (now president of ACSOL).

Here’s my take on the process and how Chance helped me – if you have any questions, don’t hesitate to ask. I will do my best to answer without being too specific to my case.

For definitive answers to legal questions, please call Chance! The folks on this website are in general not lawyers.

Chance Oberstein helped me get my life back after twelve years of anxiety as a registered sex offender. This is a minor miracle.

I believe Chance is simply the most competent specialist in post-conviction relief for sex offenders in California. For Chance, winning relief for eligible registrants is a cause and a passion. He does not approach these cases with a “business-as-usual” attitude. He takes great pride in helping people restore their lives.

In 2005, I was convicted of a misdemeanor sex offense (647.6). Fortunately, my offense was one of the few that qualified for a Certificate of Rehabilitation and removal from the registry. In 2015, I began a serious search for help in obtaining my COR. I started by consulting the attorneys I used to get my termination of probation and expungement. They seemed flummoxed by the COR process, so I had to look elsewhere.

I interviewed the lawyers my former attorneys recommended, as well as someone who was recommended by the Bar Association. These attorneys also did not inspire confidence. They either knew little about CORs, had no documented success in obtaining them for clients, charged exorbitant fees, or hyped false promises of success. One even discouraged me from applying.

I was really at the end of my options when I found Chance. I knew immediately by the questions he asked me that he was an expert in these cases. Unlike the other attorneys, he was realistic and focused. He wanted to make sure I truly qualified before he took my case.

The road to a COR is complex, draining, and and nerve-wracking. It involves asking friends to write letters in support, subjecting yourself and others to intense scrutiny by investigators, anticipating court dates with anxiety, overcoming possible glitches, and dealing with numerous other hurdles.

Making the COR even more confusing is the inconsistency in both procedures and outcomes among the various jurisdictions in California. It is very hard to find comparative information that you can use to guide you in your county. Chance has so much experience and success with these cases that he can help you navigate the bureaucracy in your particular situation.

The COR is not a process that should be undertaken without expert help and advice. It is requires that the attorney helping you be available for questions, emotionally supportive, and determined above all else to win your case.

When I finally got my COR in San Francisco, after a year of delays due to changes in personnel at the DA’s office, among other setbacks, I could barely believe the ordeal was finally over. I can’t express my gratitude enough for Chance’s constant guidance through this grueling process.

Chance is the authority on post-conviction relief for sex offenders. No other attorney that I interviewed even came close in terms of knowledge, experience, and professionalism. On top of his expertise, Chance offers personal understanding of what it means to be in the vise-grip of anxiety about constantly changing registration laws.

If you have any opportunity at all for relief from registration and want the most competent counsel in California, don’t waste your time with other attorneys. Consult with Chance Oberstein first.

Congrats on your CoR, Friend of ACSOL!

Great recommendation of Mr. Oberstein too!

Friend of ACSOL

Congratulations for having your Prayers For Relief answered and being reconciled with your Rights & Title to Privacy & Pursuit of Happiness!

It is great news to hear Chance was able to Resurrect your Joy by convincing The Seats of the courts & your Accusers to Repent & Turn from the Paths of Shame they Trespassed Upon.

I hope now that The Father Most High Possessor of Heaven & Earth who Formed Light & Created Darkness turned to you & shone His Face upon you, you will think of your fellow country men enslaved with kind thoughts & Prayers For Their Relief from bondage.

Do well & prosper

As Yehovah Lives, so should we

Hi i have read your letter and I and thankful for you and your results. I have been registering over 15 years and I need assistance getting my name cleared. I don’t understand the tier laws or if they have passed. Do anyone recommend an attorney please email me. Thanks

That is great news!! Congratulations to you and also Mr Oberstein. Right now, we are in the process of working on the reduction/ expungement. I found a law firm that offers a money back guarantee and has a flat fee of $799 for felony expungement. It almost sounds too good to be true, so I was wondering what others think about the price. I know that the expungement has to be granted if probation has been completed without violations (for offenses that qualify), so we could technically attempt this ourselves. However, the money might be worth it to save us the headache and humiliation, which I am sure would be part of going to court. As for the COR, I believe we have to wait 7 years (10 years for some offenses) here in California. Is that 7 years from date of conviction, or 7 years from release from probation?

Based upon my experience and now knowing more of the law, you can do expungement yourself.

If you completed probation successfully, then it’s automatically given and cannot be disputed.

I found my expungement paperwork. The most important section is section II.

“If an applicatn has met the statutory conditions the court is required to grant the petition” (That should be in all caps, but we’re not supposed to post in all caps as stated in the highlighted box.)

The statute provides that a defendant who “has fulfilled the conditions of probation for the entire period of probation, or has been discharged prior to the termination of the period of probation’ (italics added) is entitled as a matter of right to have the plea or verdict changed to not guilty, to have the proceedings expunged from record, and to have the accusations dismissed.” Pen C 1203.4 “If the petitioner establishes either of the necessary factual predicates, the trial court is required to grant the requested relief.” (People v. Lewis, 146 Cal.App.4th 294, 297, 53 Cal.Rptr.3d 40 (4th Dist. 2006)

So I hope this gives you ample confidence that you don’t need a lawyer to file for expungement because you are entitled to it by virtue of successfully completing probation AND not incurring any new offenses when you apply for expungement.

What you will need a lawyer for is felony reduction. Now, if that firm is willing to do both “reduction” and “expungement” for $799, then that actually is a great price. Mind you, you already did the hard work for expungement. The lawyers don’t have to do much but input what I posted for you (which they already have). It’s basically a check the box thing for the lawyer to do expungement with no real conversing, aside from you lawyer stating the fact that “it is required to grant the requested relief”.

The felony reduction is odd. IMO, it’s a check the box item as well since it’s a listed condition under 17b. I presume most people who do get probation, did not go to jail/prison. (Going to jail as a part of your probation does not count as jail time b/c county jail sentencing implies misdemeanor punishment. If it’s a misdemeanor punishment, then it’s automatically considered a misdemeanor.) If you’re that case, then you fit into the condition for 17b(3):

(3) When the court grants probation to a defendant without imposition of sentence and at the time of granting probation, or on application of the defendant or probation officer thereafter, the court declares the offense to be a misdemeanor.

Okay, so 17b (3) can be broken down into two parts:
(i) the courts grant it is a misdemeanor AT sentencing.
(ii) the courts declare it after probation upon applying for it

It seems simple. But it was created murky b/c the system misuses when the judge has discretion. If you read the law, the only time the judge has discretion is at sentencing. It is there that the judge will either give you a straight felony, a wobbler, or a misdemeanor. That is it.

But the lawyers have misconstrued the use of discretion by applying it a second time to those who want a felony reduction. Yet you’ve read what I just cut and pasted about 17b(3) from the official California legislative website:

(ii) the courts declare it after probation upon applying for it

It did not say to “petition” for it. It says specifically:

on application of the defendant or probation officer thereafter, the court declares the offense to be a misdemeanor.

PC 17(a) describes what a felony is:

A felony is a crime that is punishable with death, by imprisonment in the state prison, or notwithstanding any other provision of law, by imprisonment in a county jail under the provisions of subdivision (h) of Section 1170. Every other crime or public offense is a misdemeanor except those offenses that are classified as infractions.

Essentially, if you were not subjected to anything listed in 17(a), then you were given a misdemeanor. The imprisonment in county by Section 1170(h) is a person imprisoned at state prison, but moved to county jail to serve the state prison time.

17(b) is a list of conditions of what a misdemeanor looks like, but it’s all based upon what was given AT THE TIME of SENTENCING.

When a crime is punishable, in the discretion of the court, either by imprisonment in the state prison or imprisonment in a county jail under the provisions of subdivision (h) of Section 1170, or by fine or imprisonment in the county jail, it is a misdemeanor for all purposes under the following circumstances:

Here in 17(b), it is detailed where “discretion” is applied. Discretion is applied by punishment. Punishment is what dictates your offense. There are three types of punishments to which a judge may levy:

i) by imprisonment in the state prison or imprisonment in a county jail under the provisions of subdivision (h) of Section 1170,

ii) by fine

iii) by imprisonment in county jail.

Well, option i) is a straight felony. Option iii) is a misdemeanor, which is 17(b)(1).

If you’re 17(b)(3), then ” When the court grants probation to a defendant without imposition of sentence… ” means your sentence (punishment) was not imposed (given). Technically, your offense has no punishment levied and, therefore, is not a felony nor a misdemeanor. Recall, I just listed above that punishment is what dictates what type of offense you have: felony or misdemeanor.

So, without punishment, then how can 17(b)(3) determine the type of offense you have? Now, I’ll input the rest of 17(b)(3).

When the court grants probation to a defendant without imposition of sentence and at the time of granting probation, or on application of the defendant or probation officer thereafter, the court declares the offense to be a misdemeanor.

i) Without punishment and at the time of granting probation, the courts DECLARES the offense to be a misdemeanor.

ii) Without punishment and application after probation, the courts DECLARES the offense to be a misdemeanor.

“After probation” assumes that one has successfully completed probation. Otherwise, you failed probation and are given a new sentence (punishment or probation-again). With that said, nowhere within 17(b)(3) does it state a judge has discretion nor does it state the defendant needs to petition for the felony reduction.

In truth, anyone without imposition of sentence carries no offense value of felony or misdemeanor. Probation becomes your test. Fail and you get into the court system again. Successful completion of probation, according to 17(b)(3), automatically gets your offense to be declared a misdemeanor upon applying for it. At least, that’s how I, a layman, interprets it. It should just be an application to fill as a check the box thing. No discussing about it as 17(b)(3) is a set condition that was met. Just like 1203.4, a set condition that was met.

Lawyers will say otherwise. So get yourself a lawyer for felony reduction. You don’t necessarily need one for 1203.4, provided you successfully completed probation and have not incurred any new infractions/offenses.

To New Person: You don’t need a lawyer for a reduction 17(b). It is done at the same time as 1203.4. I did it In Pro Per; both were granted.

To Someone Who Cares: we’ve spoken via email. I was wondering if you had moved forward with the petition. It is scary, but it can be done In Pro Per. If you really need the lawyer for peace of mind, then the expense may be worth it especially when the petition is granted. Still wishing you the best of luck for a positive outcome.


1203.4 cannot be denied.

17(b), based upon how many times “discretion” should be applied, is not a certainty for approval. I have conferred with appellate lawyers as well as read paperwork regarding what constitutes as a misdemeanor or felony from a federal defenders’ pdf for its lawyers in California.

While you don’t need a lawyer for either 1203.4 or 17(b), only one is automatic right now – 1203.4.

Whilst you had a most agreeable court, I did not. My initial 1203.4 attempt was set to be denied by the judge and we did not pursue it. The DA and Probation office wrote their recommendations to not give me 1203.4. Yes, the Probation office did not recommend me despite me fulfilling all my obligations.

My second attempt went straight to the heart that the neither judge, the DA, nor probation office have a say as I am entitled for relief, or rather the courts are required to grant the petition once I have met the statutory requirements.

NPS, you and I are on different extremes. Everything worked out well for you, you even got early release. I had completed everything early for probation and my probation officer said there’s still no way they’d recommend me for early termination for probation. So, while your recommendation that you can do both pro per, only one of them cannot be denied. Would you like to be the reason why his 17(b) reduction was not awarded or would you rather err on the side of caution?

Someone who cares doesn’t want to be humiliated. I went through that humiliation when the judge told my lawyer he was gonna deny my 1203.4 before officially presenting it. It took an appellate lawyer to inform my lawyer that 1203.4 cannot be denied as it is what my lawyer had presented initially in court. But the second time, my lawyer made section 2 (which I presented in the previous post) that made it adamantly clear the judge was REQUIRED to grant 1203.4.

Although I’m not a lawyer, I know I can win every 1203.4 petition provided the defendant successfully completed probation, paid all fines, and not incur any new offenses. Why? B/c if you check all the boxes, then the court is required to grant you the petition. There is no talking involved besides the judge granting the petition.

Now, as for 17(b), that’s a totally different situation. Trust me, I’ve talked to a few lawyers. One says it’s condition that needs to be met. One says you need to petition with a lot of recommendations from several sources. Another, an appellate lawyer, says it is not required like 1203.4.

Because there is not uniformity of thought for relief of 17(b), it is prudent to prepare for the worst. I don’t want Someone Who Cares to be or feel humiliated. I want Someone Who Cares to win and win convincingly. I don’t want to give Someone Who Cares a “check move”, I want to give him the best “checkmate move”. There is a possibility Someone Who Cares can still be denied using a lawyer with gathered recommendations.

Someone Who Cares can actually do some prep work on their own by discovering the success rate of 17(b) within that court district. Which judge awarded the most or least. If Someone Who Cares does not mind the possibility of 17(b) denial, then try pro per as it is a much frugal path than using a lawyer. If it doesn’t work, then try a lawyer. But either way, please gather as many possible good recommendations as possible with you.

Understood. However, there were other factor involved with my success.
1. I’m a woman.
2. I moved the case from Orange County to San Francisco County, which made the final decision for my 1203.3, 17(b) and 1203.4. The San Francisco DA did contact Orange County’s DA for their recommendation and they advised that SF deny my petition. Thankfully, I had a judge who only weighed the recommendation from San Francisco’s Probation department and therapist.
3. The 17(b)(3) that you mentioned did not exist at the time I filed, nor was it in the paperwork. At that time, it was only a single sheet of paper. Apparently the petition has now doubled in length.

I was offered a public defender to help with the case during my hearing and I told him thanks, but no thanks.

I’m not advising that Someone Who Cares should file in Pro Per exclusively. I’m only saying it can be done. If she prefers to have a lawyer help, then for peace of mind, the expense can be well worth it.

Since I have a suspended sentence and I have completed pobation, and as you say, have no misdemeanor or felony, how can the legislature later take away the ability for me to get an expungement based on my offense? The way my lawyer explained it, probation, as you explained, was given in place of the sentence. The idea of the plea deal was that the prosecuter agreed to not impose the sentence in exchange for the guilty plea, based on many factors: a first time offense, expression of remorse, entering a treatment program, favorable probation and psycological reports as well as other mitigating factors. Both sides wanted a just decision that was severe enough to prevent reoffense, but not so severe as to create needless harm to me and my family and to turn a productive citizen into a ward of the state. Sounds reasonable, and much thought went into the judgement. I was actually impressed by it all, and immensely grateful. Then the legislature decided a few years later that people who did something like I did no longer would be open to the relief available before. Now, if anyone need to know why I am so distrustful of this system and the motives of those who propose new laws like the tiered registry, you have my answer. I echo the sentiments of Registry Terrorists, the people who love the registries, end up creating hate, rebellion and dissension.

I don’t trust the system as well.

The judges are supposed to side with the layman’s interpretation. 17(b)(3) should be just as automatic as 1203.4. I found the original case that spurred 17(b)(3): people vs Banks, 1959. Here is a quote from that case law:

And here it is to be presumed that the Alameda judge who suspended imposition of sentence for violation of former section 503 of the Vehicle Code did so with recognition that defendant would remain classified as one convicted of a felony within the meaning of section 12021 of the Penal Code until and unless the Alameda offense was reduced to a misdemeanor by imposition of appropriate sentence or until defendant successfully completed probation and received the statutory rehabilitation provided for by section 1203.4 of the Penal Code.


We recognize that “conviction” has sometimes been given the meaning of a final judgment of conviction (see Truchon v. Toomey (1953), 116 Cal.App.2d 736, 738-745 [254 P.2d 638, 36 A.L.R.2d 1230]), but that meaning does not appear appropriate here. [22] Defendant relies on the familiar rule that “Where language which is reasonably susceptible of two constructions is used in a penal law, ordinarily that construction which is more favorable to the offender will be adopted.” (People v. Smith (1955), 44 Cal.2d 77, 79 [2] [279 P.2d 33].) But that rule will not be applied to change manifest, reasonable, legislative purpose (here, the purpose expressed by section 17 of the Penal Code) that an alternatively punishable offense remains a felony until pronouncement of misdemeanor sentence or, if imposition of sentence is suspended, the purpose expressed by section 1203.4 read with section 17 that the offense remains a felony until the statutory rehabilitation procedure has been had, at which time the defendant is restored “to his former status in society insofar as the state by legislation is able to do so, with one exception, namely, that … the record in the criminal case may be used against him for limited purposes in any criminal proceeding thereafter brought against him.” (Stephens v. Toomey (1959), supra, p. 871 of 51 Cal.2d.)
For the reasons above stated the order appealed from is affirmed.
Gibson, C. J., Traynor, J., McComb, J., Peters, J., and White, J., concurred.

See. Clear as day in that case. Muddled today.

My fear isn’t the tiered registry, my fear is the people in charge. Fortunately, Janice and company are here to be oversight. Remember, Janice isn’t bringing along the tiered proposal – she wants the registry abolished. But the tiered proposal is here. Janice and team are here to mitigate the damaging effects by presenting everything in our favor to the public safety commission.

That tier boulder is coming down from the state. Maybe we should aid Janice to mitigate or destroy that boulder. I don’t like the tiered proposal as it signifies that registration is constitutional. Yet, I don’t see Janice giving up. I don’t see Chance ever giving up.

My best analogy is this: Janice, Chance, and team are like those northerners in the pre-Civil War era trying to help as many escape from slavery from the south, but at the same time be a part of Congress to also abolish it. Chance is eerily like Harriet Tubman in this analogy.

The point is… we can’t stop fighting. Dr Ira and Tara Ellman’s research work is being bandied about nowadays. That paperwork came out in 2015. We need to continue to support Janice, Chance, and company in delivering the statistical, substantiated truth.

With that said… I still think we’re not using “involuntary servitude is prohibited unless to punish a crime” statute at all. Compelled service, any type of compelled service of any term, is prohibited unless to punish a crime. If this regulatory scheme is not a punishment, but is requiring my service for any of it against my free will, then it’s involuntary servitude. But it’s much worse, none of us gets paid for this service. In California, it’s a lifetime term. That’s a lifetime service without ever getting paid that is not punishment. That statement could easily be taken for slavery.

Using a quote from People v Banks, 1959:

Defendant relies on the familiar rule that “Where language which is reasonably susceptible of two constructions is used in a penal law, ordinarily that construction which is more favorable to the offender will be adopted.” (People v. Smith (1955), 44 Cal.2d 77, 79 [2] [279 P.2d 33].)

William Loyd Garrison spent three decades hoping to appeal to the conscience of the southern slaveholders and slowly move the South out of slavery. Things just got worse and then the Fugitive Slave Act. Frederick Douglas was so frustrated with that approach he began plotting with John Brown in the Harpers Ferry raid to move things along with violence, until he had second thoughts and backed out. Point being, you can have all the reasonable arguments in the world on your side and try to convince the powers that be to give up what butters their bread, but in the end someone has to light the fuse and ignite that deep seated resentment long felt of being an owned object without rights.
This tiered registry bill is doing the opposite, it is causing the oppressed to fight amongst themselves.

I think that if you look at your state mental health laws you will understand you are not under a registration law, but rather an illegal regulatory presumptively and predetermined mental health law. But you get none of the protections of your state mental health laws
They use the same relativistic, dangerous Ness, and violence, and threat to public safety factors to civilly commit you. But here you get no actual mental health diagnosis, they just say your a dangerous person, no matter what kind d of evidence you provide.
Essentially they get a conditional release upon you with custody and control, supervision, management, and guardianship, and control over your person and image and mental health, and you get nothing.
That’s as illegal a contract as can be made. You are their slave, end of story, and disenfranchised, and sensationalized. How’s that for a bonus
These are some extremely clever and evil people who have used the laws to destroy you, and you family, and anyone who will associate with you. Just thought I would give you the heads up on what’s really going on, and to you, I think.

I think that if you look at your state mental health laws you will understand you are not under a registration law, but rather an illegal regulatory presumptively and predetermined mental health law. But you get none of the protections of your state mental health laws
They use the same relativistic, dangerous Ness, and violence, and threat to public safety factors to civilly commit you. But here you get no actual mental health diagnosis, they just say your a dangerous person, no matter what kind d of evidence you provide.
Essentially they get a conditional release upon you with custody and control, supervision, management, and guardianship, and control over your person and image and mental health, and you get nothing.
That’s as illegal a contract as can be made. You are their slave, end of story, and disenfranchised, and sensationalized. How’s that for a bonus
Take a look at your state mental health laws, you will see.

An update: The attorney Mark Devore who got my Certificate of Rehabilitation (first post) just vacated 3 misdemeanors from my record using the new law 1473.7 which went into effect 1/1/2017. It works on felonies as well and just might get you off 290. This is for immigrants who are facing immigration consequences from past pleas. It’s time sensitive so if it applies to you, FILE THE MOTION IMMEDIATELY.

My atty’s website is and he kicks ass. He obtained my C.O.R. & has vacated 4 total misdemeanors for me. Best of luck.

I am curious if a Live Scan will show you have a COR on file? Anyone have had this done? I’m waiting for mine to come back to get my Contractor License.

I am curious, too if the COR shows on the live scan. Since it shows every offense, expunged or not and even arrests that did not lead to conviction, how likely do you think it is for the contractor board to approve you? What are they really looking for, and what criteria do they go by to deny or approve?

I just did a LiveScan recently.

I got a letter saying b/c of the LiveScan, that I cannot be afforded the job. So I went in to talk to Human Resources about the denial. Apparently, they do not read the next line after conviction that it was dismissed under 1203.4. They showed me a paper that anyone with a COR or 1203.4 can still qualify for a job. The head person highlighted the COR, but didn’t read further where 1203.4 was also stated.

Then the head HR guy asked me to furnish my court document that my case was expunged to go up to the board. I replied with that information is on the LiveScan that it is expunged via 1203.4. It’s there underneath the conviction. He said people can make mistakes and put that on there. I bit my tongue b/c if they can deny outright b/c the info of conviction is on the LiveScan, then they can also acknowledge that the case was dismissed under the same LiveScan.

I gave them a copy of my 1203.4 paperwork, but it’s truly pathetic that the LiveScan states the conviction was dismissed and I wrote down on the application that I had a case expunged.

Oh… 290 has a separate section. Kinda spits on the “accusation/information about the conviction was supposed to be dismissed” as stated on 1203.4.

So did you end up getting the job? Legally they can’t discriminate against you, just like when I drove for Lyft and they sent me an email stating they are removing me as a driver based on my background check, but I disputed it with the background check conpany, and then Lyft sent me another email saying the reason I was suspended was because I I was overdue to get my car inspected and said “We miss you!” Lol.. I didn’t go back I just wanted to prove my point. Lol

@ justplainme,

Nope. It’s b/c 290 exists that I fail the background check. I’m trying to get the it on writing from HR. Then I can use that as specific evidence how 290 violates 1203.4 by continuing to make a non-convict to register – sharing the accusation and information that’s supposed to be dismissed.

Anyhow, like your situation below, only if you have a CoR can you not be denied an employment. But this job has nothing to do with a certification or high level stuff. Oh well. But congrats on your contractor’s license!

It took 2 weeks and the live scan was completed but now the CSLB has to go over everything and according to business law code 480 states that anyone with a COR, and they do say COR, shall not be denied a state license. So worst case I will find out next week after my test. I will keep you posted, but I know they can’t deny me since I have that COR!!

Dear Justplainme:

Good luck…I really want you to succeed without any problems whatsoever.

I’m not a religious person at all, but I’ll be praying for you.

Best Wishes, James

Hi James,

Thank you! And yes I just got cleared from the live scan today from the contractors board! So yes!! I’m excited I will be getting my contractors license!

Congratulations! I things continue going your way on and on!

Hi Justplainme:

Congratulations! This is seriously great news…now you go out and get them!

You made me smile.

Best Wishes, James

Thanks guys! I am super excited! So anyone who has the COR, have no fear, according to business code 480, you cannot be denied a license! So I hope this gives hope to others!

How do you get thst COR? Thanks

Hello Maria, my suggestion is call Attorney Chance Oberstein, he will know best on how to help you.

So I was recently granted a COR and according to the paperwork i got form the court, the clerk was going to mail this to all parties but after reading a few comments above I’m not sure if I have to submit anything to get my name of the registry of if i need to wait for the DOJ. Its been about 45 days since my COR and I was just wondering if anyone had some insight. I was told that i could send documents to the CDOJ Sex Offenders tracking program? Anyone done this?

Hi all. I am eligible to apply for a COR next month. I have an appointment with my lawyer next week to get the process started. My lawyer, and a couple people in this thread have used the word “scrutiny” from investigators during this process. Can anybody tell me exactly what that means? I need to know what I am getting myself into. And what I am getting my family into. I will be asking my lawyer the exact same question, but I would really like to hear from people who have gone through it. What can I expect from law enforcement, the DA’s investigators, etc.? What is reasonable guess for how long the process will take? Is the new investigation like being on probation again, or is it something different? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

@Matt, from what I’ve read others going through it, you’re basically going to be investigating yourself and providing all the favorable findings in court. While as written you should be able to get your CoR simply by having stayed out of trouble all these years, the fact is that the judge has 100% say whether or not your granted a CoR. So what usually ends up happening before hand is you’re going to see a physiologist and probably take a poly based on your lawyers recommendation (it’ll be expensive, and wouldn’t be surprised if it’s in the $5000+ range). Then you’ll present these facts that you’ve been Jesus since your conviction. The DA will either point to something legit to not grant it to you (like maybe you got a DUI or some other legal issue), or will simply say that based on your victims age, type of crime, or some other BS that’ll all seem like re-trial. The judge will then either give to you or not. One of the big favorable factors is if you’ve been doing community volunteer work. Non of these “requirements” are listed in the penal code for the CoR process, but they’re basically needed. Not sure if anyone has been able to simply walked into court with an otherwise clean record and been granted a CoR on clean record alone (which is all you need to do to get an expungement which can’t be denied if you’ve stayed clean without all the extra unwritten hoops to jump through).

Good luck and I hope you get it!

AO, Thank you very much. My case was expunged years ago. I am just trying to get the COR now. I was hounded by law for four years while I fought my case, and then three more years while on probation. Now I am just wanting to be left alone. I have heard a lot of things, but I’m not sure what’s real. And it seems like once people get a COR, they disappear from this website…….which makes it hard to find information. I promise to document this journey so that others may benefit from it. And BTW, I took -and passed- two lie detector tests while fighting my case, but I couldn’t use them to defend myself. During probation, I was told I had to take those same tests as part of my “therapy”. I refused. I’ll be damned if they’re going to make me take one now. If I couldn’t use one to help myself, I won’t allow them to use one to hurt me. Apparently law enforcement only considers it junk science if it’s not in their favor. Thank you very much for the response. I’m just wondering what kind of questions the investigators will harass my friends and loved ones with? I don’t have to worry about coworkers. The last seven jobs I got disappeared the moment they found out I am an RSO. Which is the primary reason for applying for the COR. Well, that and the giant bait and switch scam of the tiered registry.


I am currently working with a lawyer to hopefully get my CoR. Thankfully at this time I have the resources to afford someone who specializes in post conviction sex offender legal issues.

I have not filed my case yet so not sure what the response will be from the DAs office. From what I understand it is very specific to the local DAs office some are much more accommodating then others. Specifically if you live in Orange County please seriously consider moving out of that jurisdiction until you do your CoR.

Can someone answer my questions? Thank you for your time in advance.
I was convicted by a Jury in 1998 with a felony 289(d) here in California. I was sentenced to prison for 3 years. I did my time (I was released from prison for good behavior in 2000) and completed 3 years of parole. Last year, in May 2018 I was granted my CoR and now I guess my PARDON APPLICATION is sitting at the governor’s desk unless it was denied by former CA governor J. Brown.


I have been looking into what legal options do I have in order to get myself off the sex offenders registry. Unfortunately, as I read the post from Justplainme on February 1, 2016, under PCP 290.5 I do not qualify under any legal option to be off the registry. However, I have read about some type of tiers that will be up for voters this year.
Q2) Does anyone knows about how the tier system will work?

I have been living in the San Francisco Bay Area for the past 28 years and now I am planning to move to Florida.
Q3) I heard FL is one the strictest state for sex offenders. Any suggestions or comments will be appreciated.

This is only my opinion, but seriously, neither for love nor money nor for the best employment opportunity possible could you induce me to move to Florida.

Life, living, being happy, is not possible at all in Florida for a registered sex offender. (I wouldn’t stop there for a flight layover! {actually I have compelling reasons to go to FLA, but, anyone that wants me there is no friend of mine}:)>\…Never!

In 2001 there is supposed to be instituted in CA a Tiered registration system….hopefully, 30 plus years on the registry will be enough for me and I can petition my way off. It is a long and complex subject though with no guarantees of what will happen between tomorrow and Jan 1, 2021.

Map out why you want to be in Florida, explain it to us and yourself, write it all out….and then burn it and stay in California.

Really. (all I got to give is good advice)

Best Wishes, James I

Seems as if Floriduh’s strategy is working well then. If I were a state, I would hope that I would have enough sense to know that Registries are useless stupidity. I’d hope. BUT … I’d also know that most people in my state are stupid and that they love stupid things. Especially harassing and hating people. I’d know that the people keeping me elected, keeping the government paid and running, etc., are those stupid people who love Registries. So I’d have to keep the Registries and cater somewhat to stupidity. I might not do much useful, but I would do PR stunts to pacify the dumbasses.

Once I had to have Registries, I’d know the kind of trouble that they are and I’d be trying to keep as many Registered People out of my state as possible. Because it really is nothing but problems, all around. The only good thing that it does for me is get me more money so I can grow my government. Jobs for everyone. That’s it.

Personally, I think I’d like to own a residency in Florida because I think I’d enjoy forcing them to stop committing crimes. I can’t imagine I would allow any “compliance checks” at all. Certainly nothing like I’ve been reading about lately on the FAC web site, etc. Those are outrageous. I have no idea why anyone would allow law enforcement criminals (LECs) onto their property and then stand there and answer all kinds of questions from them. That is obviously not working out well at all for those people. There is literally no benefit to that.

I also feel like people bring that harassment onto themselves for the most part. LECs know who they can harass and who they can’t. They will harass who they can. If they know that you will only give them the information that the “law” forces you to give them (at the point of a gun), and ONLY in writing, then that is the beginning and end. Personally, I literally won’t talk to them. It is easiest for everyone.

If all Registered People stopped allowing “compliance checks”, they would stop. The criminal regimes might try to pass some “laws” to handle that but that would likely be a good thing in that it would force the LECs into some requirements.

LECs need to learn that Registries are a huge problem for them. They need to learn that as long as Registries exist, tens of millions of good Americans are not going to support them. Anyone who supports Registries is an enemy terrorist. They can take that “if you see something, say something” BS and shove it up their asses sideways.

Thank you James for your honest opinion

@InABiggerWall….if you ever want to be completely off a registry then you will not want to move to Florida. Please refer to the Florida Action Committee (FAC)webpage….spend a couple of hours on that site and read the posts. Those people who live in that state have it worse then just about anywhere in the country.

The tiered registry was passed and starts in 2021. Most of the details have not been worked out yet. Do not leave CA unless the Tiered registry finally removes you from the CA registry. This will likely take a few years after 2021 before anyone actually gets through the court system to get registration relief. However, under no circumstances should you ever move to Florida. They are very harsh on registrants and will most likely place you onto their registry for life. Just because CA may remove you from the registry someday, that doesn’t mean any other state won’t add you back on their registry now or in the future. Laws are constantly changing for the better and worse for us. If CA removes you from the registry, then do an extreme amount of research on the desired state and contact an attorney in that state before moving from CA. CA is a pretty easy state for us to live in compared to many other states.


Here are my 2 cents at trying to answer your questions

1) the application for a pardon does not have to be denied … so it can and will sit on the governors desk indefinitely unless a governor chooses to grant it. However, no registered California offender has ever been granted a pardon to my knowledge.

2) the California tiered registry has made it through the California legislator and been sign by governor brown … no more vote necessary. You can look up the bill and see which tier your offense lands in and find out if/when you will be eligible to petition to get off the registry. The law does not go into edfect until 2021.

3) per other comments if at all possible avoid Florida … per others look at the Florida action committee as they have lots of information to help you decide.

Good luck

Thank you for your time and honest input to Interested Party, Lake County, Josh, and James I.

Remember that if you qualify for removal in 2021, it will NOT be automatic. You must apply for removal which may be expensive and in some counties very difficult. When you have an opportunity for removal, there are clearly some Southern CA Counties that you should not reside in when applying to the court for relief. Just stay tuned to this website and be very patient until we can figure out the final rules and which DA’s will be most willing to cooperate with our removal from the registration.

Michelle ~ I believe a person has to be crime free for 10 year (7 years for some offenses) before they can apply for a COR, so it seems like the clock starts fresh from when he picked up the FTR. I know. it’s probably too late now since he is on Parole, but was it a “willful” FTR? CA 290 law states that the FTR has to be willful or knowingly.

I was released on May 1st from Post Release from Prison (Not Parole, under AB 109), I was convicted back in 04′ with PC 288 (c)(1), PC 288 (b) (1) & 289 (i), had a violation and did 9 more months for that and then re convicted back in 08′ on PC311.11 (a) did my time in Prison and released and had no more problems since.
my question and confusion is when can i try to start accomplishing the COR & reduction and expungement of the the charges??? I believe i may have 3-4 years more to i wrong?

Would love your thoughts, please comment.x